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Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

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    Guest

    Originally posted by Bruce View Post
    Well, they have been asked on any number of occasions to provide information. I don't know the exact details, but can find out. As of yet, no information has been forthcoming.


    Bruce
    Do we know that to be fact, Bruce?

    I am aware that the authorities have stated that no information has been forthcoming. On the other hand, the Italian team have maintained that they have given the appropriate information to the authorities.

    One's inclination, perhaps, might be to take at face value what the authorities are saying; ie that no information has been received by them from the Italian team. If we give the Italian team the benefit of the doubt and suppose that they actually have passed across the information but that, somehow, it has not reached the correct destination with the MOD/FCO we still need to take into the account the false and misleading information that the authorities have (twice) given out about these remains.

    Initially they said that the remains in question had been tested and found to be over 400 years old. Later, they said this was incorrect but then said that a second set of remains had been found but that they were unsuitable for the extraction of DNA. Both statements, albeit that the first was later retracted by the MOD, would suggest that remains have been recovered. We don't know where, when or how these remains were found, recovered and tested but the possibility that it was as a result of information passed to the authorities by the Italian team cannot be excluded, surely?

    Only one thing is certain here; there has been misinformation, disinformation and muddying of the waters on both 'sides' here. However, I am afraid that the authorities have not demonstrated transparency, truthfulness or accuracy in the information they have thus far provided, and that includes information to the family. Under those circumstances perhaps it is not surprising that some may doubt the statement from the authorities to the effect that "the Italians have failed to provide information about the location of the remains".

    Somebody, and possibly more than one somebody, has been somewhat economical with the truthful facts. And that is something which pervades this whole saga, including the saga of the recovery of the P40 itself.

    Comment

    • l.garey
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Feb 2006
      • 1951

      As they know, I have offered to pursue this research, so maybe I could be on the receiving end. I would be only too pleased to try to take this forward.
      Laurence

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      • Guest's Avatar
        Guest

        It is puzzling, if not incomprehensible, why the case of Flt Sgt Copping's possible remains has developed a number of what Laurence called 'personal and political overlays'.

        Time, surely, to start anew in 2014 and to cast all that aside and for Daniele (ARIDO) to openly and transparently provide the information to the British authorities (again if he has already done so) and, additionally, to Laurence Garey who is in a position to take matters forward on a professional level. There is now no earthly justification for withholding this information , and it is surely disrespectful to Flt Sgt Copping and his family to continue this macabre dance. I cannot believe that Daniele, or the British authorities, would wish to be party to that.

        Why this is all so difficult is beyond comprehension. Quite likely the remains are not those of Flt Sgt Copping, but at least the family need to know. That they should continue to be subjected to such a shameful catalogue of events is wrong on every level and morally indefensible.

        Let us hope that Daniele at Arido will supply the information (even if he has already done so) and the British authorities will act on it transparently when they are able to do so. Alternatively (or perhaps additionally) that the relevant information be supplied to Laurence Garey. What is there to hide? And why?

        Comment

        • Bruce
          Independent analyst
          • Jan 2000
          • 10222

          Yes Andy, I do.

          My understanding is that MoD SPVA have made a number of attempts to contact Arido for assistance with this issue, but without any joy.

          I have, as you have seen, made a number of pleas to Daniele on this forum, but all have been ignored.

          One has to ask why?



          Bruce

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          • Guest's Avatar
            Guest

            Bruce

            I agree as to the question; why?

            In terms of knowing for sure that it is a fact that the authorities have not been supplied with the information from Arido, I understand and hear all that you say. I, too, have been informed direct from the authorities that they have made such requests but they have not been forthcoming with the information. On the other hand, Arido were equally adamant that they had. All that can be said for sure is that somebody is not telling the truth or there are some very serious crossed wire issues. Certainly, one would like to take at face value what is being said by the authorities but I think you need to take into consideration the terrible screw-up of misinformation that has already occurred and which I set out in #1922. As a bigger background, if you like, take the case of Flt Sgt Williams when the MOD released a press statement which resulted in national newspaper articles to say that he and his aircraft had been recovered. Nothing could have been further from the truth! I realise that JCCC do a difficult job under difficult circumstances, but experience has shown that we don't exactly always get information accurately or correctly.

            Comment

            • scrooge
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Aug 2004
              • 104

              Perhaps the question to Arido should be 'which authorities?'. Is it possible that the information has been supplied to Italian or Egyptian police or similar and not the UK MoD?

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              • Guest's Avatar
                Guest

                A very valid question, Scrooge. However, I am pretty sure I recall that Arido say they telephoned to the (then) British Defence Attache in Cairo, Captain Collins, to pass on the co-ordinates.

                Somebody may be able to confirm that, but I think that information is here somewhere, buried far back in this thread.

                Comment

                • scrooge
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Aug 2004
                  • 104

                  Yes, I vaguely recall that too, now that you mention it.

                  However, if Arido did not talk directly to Captain Collins, or did not provide sufficent detail or Captain Collins (or a message taker) did not write down or, for whatever reason, record and pass on the message, or the message got mislaid or misfiled, then the MoD will have no record, and therefore will have 'not received' the information.

                  We all know this sort of misinformation and poor message handling goes on all the time.

                  Anyway, carry on the search and maybe one day a satisfactory investigation will be reported.
                  Last edited by scrooge; 7th January 2014, 23:16. Reason: to clarify the context of my comment

                  Comment

                  • Bruce
                    Independent analyst
                    • Jan 2000
                    • 10222

                    Why should Capt Collins be the scapegoat here? We first need an answer from Arido...

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                    • Guest's Avatar
                      Guest

                      Yes, unfair to make anyone a scapegoat without any evidence and just an assumption or suggestion, or to add two and two and get five.

                      If the information was passed on the family ought to know why it wasn't acted on and why the authorities are saying it hasn't been passed on. If it wasn't passed on we need to know from Arido why not.

                      However, if we are looking for answers in this case, there are also a good many the British authorities need to answer. Why did they say the bones had been tested and were over 400 years old, only to later admit that no bones had been found and tested? Later, to state that a second set had been found but that DNA could not be extracted - a scenario doubted by those in a position to doubt. I think the authorities need to supply some answers. Not just Arido.

                      Comment

                      • 43-2195
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • May 2012
                        • 334

                        Take it to the press and shine a big bright spotlight on it. Let your MPs know the press are running with it. It's all very well to sit back and let the public service perform it's duties in the fullness of time. But in this case the public service are saying the matter is closed. And, to any intelligent and informed person, it obviously is still very much an open case with leads not followed.
                        I have a new G4m crashsite here in PNG, we notified the Japanese embassy, who told us to notify the PNG National Museum, which we then did and nothing has happened in 2 years. We are now notifying the G4m reunion associations in Japan in the hope that they will bring political pressure to the case. The site is littered with bones, and the landowners are not impressed with the lack of respect and action they have witnessed.
                        The US JPAC operate on similar time scales, but they do act, they liase with the public and they stress that the sites not be visited or disturbed. So action does take place.............in the fullness of (public service)time.
                        SEEKING LOCKHEED P-38 PARTS, WILL BUY OR SWAP.

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                        • Guest's Avatar
                          Guest

                          43-2195

                          It has been taken to the press and a good many MPs have been written to. Unfortunately, we are still in the same place.

                          Comment

                          • DaveF68
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jun 2004
                            • 1790

                            This relates more to the P-40 than Flt Sgt Copping, but on the thread on the GW hangar closure, it is noted by jeepman that the P-40 gets a mention in the RAF Museum annual accounts for 2012/13, on P11 (p14 of the PDF)

                            Also in 2012 the Museum undertook a joint project with Kennet Aviation to recover RAF Kittyhawk ET574 from the Egyptian desert in exchange for one the Spitfires from the Museums collection. The aircraft has been successfully retrieved and is presently in secure storage.
                            http://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/upl...13-for-web.pdf

                            Not 'new' news but the first time I recall seeing this being acknowledged by the RAFM. Apologies if mentioned before, but i couldn't see it.
                            Last edited by DaveF68; 17th February 2014, 14:07.

                            Comment

                            • Mike J
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2000
                              • 3241

                              So has the Spitfire (a Mark 22 I believe) been traded to Kennet themselves or is it destined for the Egyptians?

                              Comment

                              • DaveF68
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jun 2004
                                • 1790

                                Presumably PK664? I didn't realise it wasn't in the Science Museum anymore. Or do the RAFM have another mk 22?
                                Last edited by Peter; 18th February 2014, 00:11. Reason: pointless quote removed

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                                • Guest's Avatar
                                  Guest

                                  "The aircraft has been successfully retrieved and is presently in secure storage."

                                  But presumably not yet successfully retrieved from secure storage?
                                  Last edited by Tangmere1940; 17th February 2014, 15:48. Reason: typo

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                                  • Guest's Avatar
                                    Guest

                                    Just to add that RAFM confirmed in August that Spitfire PK664 was no longer in their custody and had left the RAFM Reserve Collection during February 2013.

                                    (In part answer, I hope, to DaveF68)

                                    Comment

                                    • DaveF68
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Jun 2004
                                      • 1790

                                      Thanks Andy - someone needs to tell the Science Museum as it's still on their website!! :-)
                                      Last edited by Peter; 18th February 2014, 00:10. Reason: pointless quote removed

                                      Comment

                                      • DaveF68
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jun 2004
                                        • 1790

                                        Back to the P-40, I found this on the Barnet Building Control site:

                                        http://acolaidpublic.barnet.gov.uk/o...E_BCAPR_194315

                                        "Change of Use From Exhibition Space to Office and Educational Facilities on the Upper Gallery and Removal of Cinema for New Kittyhawk Display"

                                        Comment

                                        • Mike J
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Jan 2000
                                          • 3241

                                          Cart before horse?

                                          Comment

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