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Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

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  • John Green
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Mar 2011
    • 6643

    Re 1901

    Used perhaps for application to burn injuries ?

    Comment

    • Bruce
      Independent analyst
      • Jan 2000
      • 10224

      Ah, Qatarra is back..

      Daniel, can you please confirm that the coordinates of the human remains identified by the Italian team of which you were a part, have been passed on to the relevant authorities. If not, could we ask why? No progress can be made in relation to the pilot until this has been done.

      I would note that the pictures you posted relate to the expedition to recover the aircraft, of which you had no part. I can confirm that the aircraft was dismantled correctly, and to the book. It is currently stored in Egypt, but with the current instability in that country, I can't see an early resolution to the impasse surrounding it.


      Bruce

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      • Guest's Avatar
        Guest

        Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the aircraft recovered from the desert long before the current instability?

        Comment

        • Bruce
          Independent analyst
          • Jan 2000
          • 10224

          More like a lull in the instability....

          Comment

          • DaveF68
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jun 2004
            • 1790

            AS someone interested in historical aircraft colours, the underside is fascinating. You can see (I think) the original US version of Sky under the Azure Blue. there is a lot of controversy about that colour, so this relic might be important in that regard. I know colours aren't regarded as 'serious' history by some, but I find it very interesting.

            Comment

            • Mark_pilkington
              Rank 9999 Registered User
              • Jun 2004
              • 1791

              I'm very pleased to see that this rare surviving battle field artefact has been recovered before it could be further looted and vandalised, following it disclosure on youtube.

              I hope it is eventually secured by a UK museum (IWM / RAFM, as it appears likely) and preserved and conserved in its current state rather than to a factory fresh restoration, and worse still airworthy warbird outcome.

              I do not support the arguments that the aircraft should have been left there until the pilot remains are located - the desert is a rather large and deep sandpit, ignoring the possibility of burial by indiginous travellers over the last 70 years.

              It seems clear the pilot survived the crash, apparently well enough to try and get the radio working on the ground, and it seems likely an attempt was made to "walk out" with the predicable results.

              The crash site GPS co-ordinates are known, as supposedly those of the remains previously located.

              I would see that the responsibility for investigating those sits with MOD and probably the Veterans-UK unit rather than a museum or its contractors or third party go- between?

              Its clear that Egypt was, has been, and still is a difficult political and physical environment.

              Clearly the resources and skills to recover a P40 from one site, are significantly different from those required to examine and recover human remains from another site 8km away, even if you do have the co-ordinates.

              It would make sense to "try" to combine the trips, and to take such expertise to the crash site, but we have no evidence that didnt happen, or was considered, or that the "authorities" havent examined the crash site for remains in the period since the discovery, to put it bluntly we dont know what the Egyptian military and government has done within their own country. We certainly saw images of Egyptian Military on site in this forum a long time ago.

              It seems "someone" is pursuing and investigating remains with reports of carbon dating 400yo remains from a second site.

              We read of claim and counter claim regarding the original remains and as to if their location has been provided to the "authorities" or not? and given this is all being played out in Egypt, a sovereign state clearly in turmoil?, I would wonder who some consider the "authorities" to be?, I would have thought the Egyptians have primary jurisdiction in this matter?

              I'm not sure the constant repeating of the same confected outrage on public forums such as these achieves much to progress those outcomes?

              Surely if there is some great controversy of this, the UK media could be briefed and a few well placed articles to stir public interest and opinion could cause the "truth" to come to light?, along with some personal letters to the UK PM and Defence Minister?,

              Strangely there is no mention of either efforts being made?, by those vocal about this issue, and apparently capable of making such efforts?

              Well done to Tim Manna and hopefully the RAF Museum is the final recipient, the specific arrangements are their business and best kept confidential while the process remains "in progress" and within Egyptian borders, and in the same way the search for human remains ( if actively underway) may also require some diplomacy given the political environment there?, to avoid damaging any progress and access /support that is being given.

              The missing pilot has probably not ever received the public awareness of his loss, as has happened since the discovery of his P40.

              I would have thought its return and preservation and ongoing display in the UK as a battlefield artefact would be a very fitting memorial to his service and sacrifice for his nation.

              Hopefully if his remains can be found, that they too will be recovered, but I do not see both items dependant on each other, beyond providing the impetus and location to start such a search, once "one" is located, it need not wait for the "other" to be located/recovered first?

              The two issues and recoveries seperate into different expertise, and resources/time on the ground, and apparantly different places on the ground?

              There would be many other MIA UK servicemen in the same sandpit, and many other locations around the world, and MOD/Veterans-UK would appear to be a far more appropriate resourced entity and process to investigate and pursue them, than to delegate to a technology museum and its team of airframe dismantlers?

              A UK campaign to "bring them home" as occurs in the USA, would seem to have some resonance as we approach the Centenary of WW1, the war to end all wars, but it needs media and wider public opinion to support investment in that activity, over flying Vulcans, or hosting the Olympics etc


              Regards

              Mark Pilkington
              Last edited by Mark_pilkington; 21st December 2013, 00:21.
              "Never has a Country so Big!, owed so Much!, to those who Flew!"

              Comment

              • The Beach
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jun 2009
                • 86

                good post Mark
                The most balanced and sensible post on this subject so far (my opinion)
                If flying was difficult the engineers would do it

                Comment

                • David Burke
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Jan 2000
                  • 10028

                  There is no evidence to prove that the Egyptian authorities are exercising any effort in locating remote human remains. Its highly likely that they are expending all their efforts in supporting what was effectively a military coup. Regards the aircraft itself -there is no compelling reason why it should be recovered to the U.K -it could just as easily be preserved in the theatre in which
                  it was lost -that is where its history is - not in North London.

                  Comment

                  • Mark_pilkington
                    Rank 9999 Registered User
                    • Jun 2004
                    • 1791

                    Originally posted by David Burke View Post
                    There is no evidence to prove that the Egyptian authorities are exercising any effort in locating remote human remains. Its highly likely that they are expending all their efforts in supporting what was effectively a military coup.
                    There are rumours/reports of a second set of remains different to those discovered 8km south of the site by the Italians, that have supposedly been determined to be over 400 years old b carbon dating and not carrying any identifiable DNA -

                    A spokesman for the MoD said: 'The Egyptian medical research authorities have tested some bones and have come back and said it is not possible for a DNA sample to be extracted from them.
                    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2o6uRKFNS


                    There is no suggestion that the MOD is running around the sandpit themselves investigating remains, it seems clear onsite operations in relation to human remains is being handled by the Egyptians, if anyone?



                    After the bones were found last year, the family was initially told by the MoD that they were far too old to have been those of the lost airman.

                    It then emerged that this ruling was based on a flippant remark made by a member of the Egyptian authorities and the remains hadn't been examined at all.

                    Mr Pryor-Bennett, 62, was then invited to supply a DNA sample only for the bones to now be written off.

                    He and the forensic pathologists are demanding to know how authentic the tests have been up until now and more details about the circumstances of the examinations.

                    Mr Pryor-Bennett, from Kinsale, Cork, Ireland, said: 'I am a little bit appalled about how all of this has been handled. All the information that I have received since these bones were discovered last June has been misleading and vague.

                    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2o72ahz7F


                    If the information from Egypt about the testing was incorrect, the existence of a second set of remains untrue, I'm not sure how the MOD could be sure, other than looking over someone's shoulder in Cairo?, and that diplomatically, may not be acceptable? or permitted?

                    Still - Arido went to the site in June 2012, and found human remains 8km south of the wreck site, and apparently have the GPS co-ordinates, it would seem possible to provide that information to the Egyptian "authorities" and ask permission to recover them and have them tested in Egypt? - that IS something the MOD and Veterans-UK would seem capable of pursuing?

                    http://www.qattara.it/versione%20in%...ESTO%20_1_.pdf


                    it does seem that the P40 recovery team was able to confirm there were no human remains present on that site?

                    Tim noted that the desert area where it
                    was located is actually largely rock. There was
                    no sign of the pilot’s remains although a
                    parachute had obviously been arranged as a
                    protection. It is assumed that the RAF pilot,
                    24 year old Dennis Copping, must have
                    attempted to walk from the crash site.
                    Apparently Bedouin tribesmen had
                    developed an attachment to the aircraft and a
                    settlement with them had to be arranged.
                    It is planned that the aircraft will be
                    displayed at the RAF Museum in the manner it
                    was discovered much as was done with the
                    Halifax recovered many years ago from a fiord
                    in Norway.
                    http://atlanticcanadaaviationmuseum....vember2012.pdf


                    Of course some of this is too thin a source of information to satisfy the demands of some here, but to me it suggests there is someone in "authority" on the ground in Egypt and it would seem that is the "Egyptians", not the UK MOD or UK Embassy in Cairo, as would be the expectation of another sovereign Nation State.


                    Regards the aircraft itself -there is no compelling reason why it should be recovered to the U.K -it could just as easily be preserved in the theatre in which
                    it was lost -that is where its history is - not in North London.
                    I imagine that's a question the Egyptians have already had the opportunity to consider and decide for themselves, I have no doubt that if they wished to recover/ retain / display it, they would have done so, and then none of what we are discussing in terms of its possible future would be open for discussion.

                    I personally do support preservation of some objects in the battle zone, or near to it, but to leave them insitu, as shown in PNG, and with Lady B Good, over time these will simply be cut up for private gain as scrap metal. (or recovered privately and perhaps illegally, but most likely for warbird restoration, parts or re-birthing)

                    While in many cases private recovery, parts recovery or full restoration is far better than ongoing destruction and loss onsite, I personally think the preservation of an RAF P40 combat veteran aircraft and participant in such a tragic event is very appropriate to be repatriated back to the UK and displayed as is, as against simply being left in situ for tourist visits, souveniring and the inevitable scrap visits.

                    But expression of differing opinions, and freedom of speech, were just some of the rights that were being fought for in WW2, and we are lucky to be able to agree to disagree across the world, and across the internet.


                    regards

                    Mark Pilkington
                    Last edited by Mark_pilkington; 21st December 2013, 13:00.
                    "Never has a Country so Big!, owed so Much!, to those who Flew!"

                    Comment

                    • Guest's Avatar
                      Guest

                      I'm afraid that some of your comments, Mark Pilkington, are factually incorrect or otherwise flawed.

                      I do not believe anybody has ever suggested that the aircraft should have been left where it was 'until the pilot's remains are located'. Instead, we had a number of informed professionals from such disciplines as forensic osteology, pathology and archaeology stating that the immediate crash site should have been subject to minute examination before 'release' of the site to the recovery team.

                      We do not know that the pilot 'tried to get the radio working on the ground'. That is just a theory and (apparently) remains unproven. Neither do we know that he walked out, although I accept you say this 'seems likely'. However, we simply do not know.

                      Responsibility for the remains rests, initially, with the Egyptian authorities. The British MOD have no role in this, save for dealing with issues arising out of the discovery, recovery and identification of the remains should those of the pilot be found. They would then deal with NOK issues and instruct the CWGC to bury the remains in the nearest 'open' CWGC cemetery. They would not be repatriated. Equally, it is worth noting that the CWGC do not have a role in the recovery of remains. This is outside the remit of their Royal Charter and is not their responsibility. Equally, the MOD have no team(s) to conduct such work, unlike other governments, and although we do have a Military Attache presence in Cairo the possibility of military boots on the ground in Egypt, at this time, seems somewhat unlikely. I do not know what you mean by the 'Veterans UK Unit'.

                      Certainly, nobody has ever suggested that it was the remit of either the RAFM or their contractors to deal with the remains of the pilot in terms of those remains reported some distance away. However, one hopes that the team would have been fully mindful of the possible presence of human remains at the crash site and dealt with them appropriately had then been any obvious evidence.

                      There has never, to my knowledge, been any suggestion of 'carbon dating' of remains. It was stated officially some while ago by the MOD that the remains had been 'tested' and found to be at least 400 years old. When this was queried by the family and full details sought there was eventually an admission that no such testing had ever taken place. The MOD stated they would be apologising to the family. I am not aware that this has ever happened. Subsequently, there have been suggestions that another set of remains were discovered but were found unsuitable for the extraction of DNA. No explanation has ever been given as to (a) where these remains came from (b) who tested them, or, (c) where they are now. This despite requests from qualified parties in the world of pathology acting for the family. This party (a forum poster, here) is highly qualified in his field and seriously doubts the 'unsuitability' of any such remains for the extraction of DNA. This, remember, coming from someone who is professionally qualified in this discipline. Not from a random forum poster with an unqualified opinion.

                      It is clear there has been a good deal of obfuscation, mis-information, dis-information and downright lies coming from a number of parties involved in the matter of the human remains. Clearly, the situation existing in Egypt is not helpful but it remains a matter of fact that, for whatever reason, not all of the parties have been playing with a straight bat, here. Certainly, there has to be some doubt that the remains found some distance away (and we know them to be human) are related to the crash. That said, they do appear to have been photographed in association with a portion of parachute that appears likely to have come from the P40 site. Clearly, this has not been explained. However, it is also clear that we don't know if the British authorities and the Italian team are communicating with each other. I'm afraid that both parties give different accounts of the truth, here! The MOD insist they have had no communication from the Italian party who found the remains. The Italian party say otherwise.

                      As to your comment about 'confected outrage' and that there is '....no mention of efforts by those vocal about this issue and capable of making such efforts', well, I'm afraid you couldn't make a comment that was so wide of the mark if you tried! The 'confected outrage' of which you speak resulted in many here (and off the forum, too) raising the matter with MPs and ministers. The replies were varied, or non-existent, and just peddled the official and inaccurate MOD view on the case. Pressure, too, was put on other agencies - but to no avail. The matter, too, was picked up by the British press who continue to maintain an interest, albeit that no coverage has recently been given. So, this 'confected outrage' had the effect of getting many to be pro-active albeit with dismal results. Behind the scenes you may be assured that 'those apparently capable of making such efforts' continue to do so. What you see here is the tip of an iceberg, with much going on behind the scenes by parties who are intent on trying to push this forward for the family. I, and others on this forum, have travelled to Ireland to meet with the family and have been in subsequent contact with them. How they have been treated is shameful, quite frankly. I am quite sure they have drawn some measure of comfort from this 'confected outrage'.

                      There are, of course, two issues in this matter; the P40 itself and the pilot.

                      In your post I am drawn to the conclusion that you probably follow the view that the P40 itself is the primary consideration. Certainly, others have formed the view that the importance of the P40 itself and completing the arrangements to ship it to the UK, and the risk to such arrangements over the 'difficult' matter of the pilot, transcends any other consideration - including how the family is treated. That the P40 is out of the desert is to be applauded and Tim Manna's team obviously did a good job in that respect. However, it remains stuck in Egypt it seems, and we have yet to see the final outcome of those salvage efforts and any transaction completed 'twixt the RAFM and contractor for its salvage. That said, there are distinct protocols on a world-wide basis for the protection of archaeological artefacts (of which the P40 is one) within the country they were found. Egypt is a country that is particularly sensitive to these protocols, of course, and David Burke is quite right in his #1909.

                      I would also add that this post was made before I had seen your subsequent post, Mark.
                      Last edited by Tangmere1940; 21st December 2013, 14:31. Reason: typo

                      Comment

                      • Uncle Mort
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • May 2004
                        • 22

                        MoD Actions

                        Originally posted by Mark_pilkington View Post

                        .... Hopefully if his remains can be found, that they too will be recovered, but I do not see both items dependant on each other, beyond providing the impetus and location to start such a search, once "one" is located, it need not wait for the "other" to be located/recovered first?
                        ...
                        There would be many other MIA UK servicemen in the same sandpit, and many other locations around the world, and MOD/Veterans-UK would appear to be a far more appropriate resourced entity and process to investigate and pursue them, than to delegate to a technology museum and its team of airframe dismantlers?


                        Regards

                        Mark Pilkington
                        Mark An excellent post. Unfortunately with regards to the quoted text above, there is little possibility of the UK Govt being proactive, as a read of earlier posts on this thread and a response given by a Defence Minister to a recent written question in the House of Commons, reproduced below, in respect of searching for or recovering WW1 remains, confirms. No reason to suggest they will treat WW2 cases any different.


                        From HANSARD -25 Nov 2013 : Column 40W

                        World War I
                        Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what plans his Department has to provide financial assistance in order to locate and identify the bodies of missing soldiers from the First World War in France. [176110]

                        Anna Soubry: ( = Minister Defence Personnel, Veterans and Welfare) The UK Government discourages the disturbance of battlefields where human remains may be present and do not authorise speculative searches of such sites. However, when bodies of missing service personnel from the First World War are discovered, the Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre (JCCC) will try to identify the body and contact the next of kin. The JCCC will then organise at public expense an appropriate burial in the nearest Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemetery in the country in which the remains are found. If they are unable to identify the remains, they will be buried as Known unto God.

                        Comment

                        • Mark_pilkington
                          Rank 9999 Registered User
                          • Jun 2004
                          • 1791

                          Originally posted by Tangmere1940 View Post
                          I'm afraid that some of your comments, Mark Pilkington, are factually incorrect or otherwise flawed.

                          I do not believe anybody has ever suggested that the aircraft should have been left where it was 'until the pilot's remains are located'. Instead, we had a number of informed professionals from such disciplines as forensic osteology, pathology and archaeology stating that the immediate crash site should have been subject to minute examination before 'release' of the site to the recovery team.

                          We do not know that the pilot 'tried to get the radio working on the ground'. That is just a theory and (apparently) remains unproven. Neither do we know that he walked out, although I accept you say this 'seems likely'. However, we simply do not know.
                          I would suggest we would know for sure one way or the other, if his body had been found inside the cockpit, or alternatively found to be the ARIDO remains some 8km to the south?

                          but as you say - I did say "seems likely".

                          Responsibility for the remains rests, initially, with the Egyptian authorities. The British MOD have no role in this, save for dealing with issues arising out of the discovery, recovery and identification of the remains should those of the pilot be found.
                          Strangely I thought I gave primary responsibility for the investigation of human remains to the Egyptian authorities too?, but that doesn't stop the MOD and Foreign Affairs encouraging the Egyptians diplomatically?


                          I, and others on this forum, have travelled to Ireland to meet with the family and have been in subsequent contact with them. How they have been treated is shameful, quite frankly. I am quite sure they have drawn some measure of comfort from this 'confected outrage'.
                          So if investigation and recovery of human remains is an Egyptian "authorities" Responsibility, how does it become an MOD and RAFM issue? if information coming from Egypt is unreliable and perhaps incomplete in terms of the ARIDO remains being studied?

                          The P40 has been recovered into storage, assumed to be with Egyptian "authorities" permission, the investigation of the ARIDO remains seems to be still to be done, provision of inaccurate earlier information to the family is disappointing, but the MOD apparently passed on the information at the time in good faith, again I would have thought this is exactly the role Veterans-UK was there to manage?

                          There are, of course, two issues in this matter; the P40 itself and the pilot.

                          In your post I am drawn to the conclusion that you probably follow the view that the P40 itself is the primary consideration. Certainly, others have formed the view that the importance of the P40 itself and completing the arrangements to ship it to the UK, and the risk to such arrangements over the 'difficult' matter of the pilot, transcends any other consideration - including how the family is treated. That the P40 is out of the desert is to be applauded and Tim Manna's team obviously did a good job in that respect. However, it remains stuck in Egypt it seems, and we have yet to see the final outcome of those salvage efforts and any transaction completed 'twixt the RAFM and contractor for its salvage. That said, there are distinct protocols on a world-wide basis for the protection of archaeological artefacts (of which the P40 is one) within the country they were found. Egypt is a country that is particularly sensitive to these protocols, of course, and David Burke is quite right in his #1909.
                          We seem to both agree there are two issues, the aircraft and the pilots remains, and that they quickly diverge.


                          I don't think the two are reliant on one another in anyway.

                          I thought my earlier posts made that clear?

                          I don't think I have made any comments on how the family should be treated or the importance of the P40 over any human remains and I would agree you are simply drawing conclusions without any basis of fact as to my views on those matters.

                          I note there was a proposal for a film documentary and full site forensic investigation, and given you seem to be the source of that information (post #1527) I assume that you may well have been part of that proposal?, but for what ever reason it was not taken up? (costs?).

                          As for confected outrage, - that's the impression I gain from reading a number of comments over the last 10 pages.

                          If you and other individuals are doing things "behind" the scenes, then good for you, but they don't seem detailed greatly either?

                          If my view of things has a flaw or is factually incorrect, its based on the publicly presented information, as far as I can see?



                          In regards to protocols world wide, I assume you are referring to the Burra Charter,

                          - are you somehow suggesting that Egypt has not approved the aircrafts recovery from site?


                          I would have thought international diplomacy would require any recovery project undertaken with even arms length involvement by a UK agency
                          - would first require permission from the Egyptian "authorities"?
                          - are you suggesting it wasn't?


                          Again if you know for sure - you would seem not to be disclosing it, or are you simply making assumptions, as you do so in regards to my view of "whats important".

                          I do think it was important to recover the P40 wreck from its crash-site before its eventually destroyed.

                          Its quite possible the recovery into relative secure storage is the only thing so far agreed between British and Egyptian "authorities".

                          Its quite possible the aircraft might remain in Egypt to be preserved there, although that doesn't appear to have been Tim Hanna's intent?


                          I do think it is important to determine "what /who" ARIDO did discover 8km south of the wreck site.

                          Beyond that, if the pilots remains cannot be found, they share the fate of many of MIA's around the world, and all the discovery and recovery of the P40 has done is to at least resolve his fate for the family, and provide a very tangible evidence and memorial of that.

                          It seems by many posts, that the UK government's official policy is not to go out simply searching for MIA's?, the recovery of the P40 is clearly a tangible project in terms of costs and effort, the search for remains in the desert can become very costly, and obviously create precedents.


                          So it would seem the P40 recovery to secure storage has been achieved, but investigation of the ARIDO remains has not?

                          Why "not", and "not" by "whom" -seems still undefined, and even the details of who has been told of their locations seems rather unclear?



                          "Who" should be interested in seeing these remains investigated - clearly the UK "authorities"

                          "Who" has legal jurisdiction over them? - clearly the Egyptian "authorities"

                          As I said earlier, it would seem to be MOD's and Veterans-UK's role, and the Defence Ministers "interest" to see that was resolved one way or the other, but in the end, unless the Burra Charter is not also applied to human remains (let alone International Diplomacy), I would assume any formal investigation by the UK MOD would need the authority and probably support of the Egyptian Government?, even under simple diplomatic courtesy.

                          Of course, as ARIDO has shown, there is nothing to stop private individuals (with apparent Egyptian police escorts) to investigate such remains in the Desert?, I don't know the Egyptian laws for "interfering with", or "recovering" human remains, even for local testing, and I assume it would be far better for such action to be undertaken under the authority of the Egyptians themselves.

                          Perhaps you are solving all of this behind the scenes too?, or writing to the Media and the UK PM and UK Defence Minister urging that they do?

                          and good on you if you are, as I don't think simply suggesting it here in this forum, or re-stating it as unsatisfactory, is going to achieve it? - as was my point in any case.

                          We seem to agree on some things, and disagree on others, including your conclusions as to my own views.

                          As I said to David, we are all welcome to our opinions, even to agree to dis-agree.

                          I am pleased, and remain so, to see the P40 has been recovered as stated at the beginning of my post, and consider it an important battlefield relic that should be preserved, either in Egypt, or back in the UK.

                          My preference in this case, would be to see it back in the UK, but if it remained in Cairo, and was preserved locally, (like the rare P40L has been in Italy), then that's better than it simply being left to be stripped clean.

                          I am disappointed if the ARIDO remains have not been investigated, but it seems even from Qattra in February 2013 that the "authorities" in Egypt had not requested their location details, and so far it doesn't seem confirmed that anyone other than ARIDO still know where they are, other than the general description of 8km south of the wreck.

                          Above are my stated opinions, and right or wrong, they are mine, based on the facts, or publicly known information, as perceived by me.

                          Regards

                          Mark Pilkington
                          "Never has a Country so Big!, owed so Much!, to those who Flew!"

                          Comment

                          • Guest's Avatar
                            Guest

                            Mark

                            Actually, I think we are substantially pretty much in agreement on many of the issues raised.

                            There are some things I am not in a position to share (yet) in a public forum and I suspect this is true for other parties involved, one way or another, in this protracted affair.

                            However, when I get time later over the weekend I'll come back and answer some of the specific questions you ask.

                            Meanwhile, and whilst we don't always agree or see eye to eye on issues, your posts are always interesting, well presented and certainly add value to this forum. Long may it continue. In fact, nothing could be more pertinent than your comment: "But expression of differing opinions, and freedom of speech, were just some of the rights that were being fought for in WW2, and we are lucky to be able to agree to disagree across the world, and across the internet."

                            I'll try to come back later today, but if not this side of the festive season then wishing you a Happy Christmas and New Year from a wet, cold and dark Britain!

                            Comment

                            • Mark_pilkington
                              Rank 9999 Registered User
                              • Jun 2004
                              • 1791

                              Merry Xmas to you too Andy, I enjoy the debates on this forum precisely because they go much deeper than paint schemes and airshows, and involve different opinions but a common interest in preserving and promoting aviation history.

                              I find there is always something to learn from others through reading this forum, and spend much more time reading here than I do posting here.

                              Hopefully the riddle of those human remains can be resolved soon, and ideally confirmed to be our missing pilot?, but at least resolved one way or the other.

                              Regards

                              Mark Pilkington
                              "Never has a Country so Big!, owed so Much!, to those who Flew!"

                              Comment

                              • l.garey
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Feb 2006
                                • 1951

                                Andy and Mark in particular:
                                Since the early days of this sad affair the "British" side was represented by the Defence Attach of the British Embassy in Cairo. I indeed have dealt with two of them so far. The sequence of events was: the ARIDO team found some human bones about 8 km from the crash site. They claimed that the bones were left in situ and never recovered. I had offered my services to identify the bones with DNA techniques, and the family of Dennis Copping had agreed to this. However, the ARIDO link dried up, on the grounds that this affair had had too much public airing, and my attempts to find out locally in Cairo via my professional contacts there were fruitless. Then there came the report from the Cairo Defence Attach that a second set of bones had been discovered and "tested" in Cairo (not by carbon dating), with the result that they were found to be "unsuitable" (although no-one could tell me who had come to this conclusion). I do not know where this second set came from, if it ever existed. Again, no information has been forthcoming from either ARIDO or Cairo (embassy or local pathologists). The Defence Attach informed me that the case was "closed". An MoD representative in the UK told me that their information came from the Cairo embassy.

                                I believe that if we could recover some human material we should be able to say if it belongs to Denis Copping or not. It is basically a simple problem, but seems to have acquired a number of political and personal overlays that I cannot understand.

                                Perhaps qattara can tell us whether to his knowledge the bones are STILL in situ in the desert.
                                Laurence

                                Comment

                                • qattara
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • May 2012
                                  • 52

                                  dear all
                                  Unfortunately I have to inform you that, due to "pressures" that have seen obscured our web site for a long time, wiretaps, suggestions to desist from any research etc, ARIDO decided to abandon all research related to the discovery of the bones in the desert and their dating comparison with dNA family in spite of the promising developments agreed with the university of cairo

                                  Comment

                                  • Bruce
                                    Independent analyst
                                    • Jan 2000
                                    • 10224

                                    Time then to provide their whereabouts to the authorities Daniel?

                                    It was never your responsibility in any case!

                                    Comment

                                    • David Burke
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Jan 2000
                                      • 10028

                                      'The Defence Attach informed me that the case was "closed" ' -who exactly is the information to be given to on the basis of this !

                                      Comment

                                      • Bruce
                                        Independent analyst
                                        • Jan 2000
                                        • 10224

                                        Well, they have been asked on any number of occasions to provide information. I don't know the exact details, but can find out. As of yet, no information has been forthcoming.


                                        Bruce

                                        Comment

                                        • Peter
                                          Moderator
                                          • Jan 2000
                                          • 12508

                                          that is just sad and disgraceful as well...
                                          Cheers,Peter
                                          "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

                                          Comment

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