Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

Collapse
X
Collapse
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • David Burke
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jan 2000
    • 10027

    A press conference at the RAF museum would have been appropriate to allow family members a chance to attend and give a context to the recovery .
    To carry it out in a country pretty much irrelevant to the story and with little recourse if any to family members seems highly unusual to say the least.
    With no outcome to the human remains issue - the whole exercise to the eyes of most will seem like a P-40 treasure hunt.

    Comment

    • Guest's Avatar
      Guest

      An internet search to see if it threw up anything in relation to Tim Manna's advertised talk in the USA just yesterday revealed nothing, although this seems to indicate that he has already given at least one talk on the subject across the other side of the Atlantic. Anbody know anything about this?

      http://atlanticcanadaaviationmuseum....nt-nov-18-7pm/

      It just seems very odd that the story is (apparently) being presented to the public on the American continent but we are kept in the dark here - including the banning of any forum discussion about the actual aircraft.

      Meanwhile, the family are in the dark. Totally.

      Comment

      • jeepman
        infrequent poster now
        • Apr 2004
        • 1982

        seems to have been a bit of a lecture tour.......

        http://atlanticcanadaaviationmuseum....nt-nov-18-7pm/

        Edit.....snap Andy!
        JM

        Comment

        • Guest's Avatar
          Guest

          Snap!

          Comment

          • Jayce
            Order of the Bent Pitot
            • Nov 2010
            • 495

            I think we need to be careful of "three and fourpence syndrome" It's very easy for someone to say 'died in the incident', (Which I think we can all agree was Copping's tragic fate.) and then have others interpret it as 'died in the crash'.

            I still recall an incident where we informed the nearby press wagons of the safety distance around a Tonka crash site due to the FLIR... only for them to report nationally that the a/c had scattered radioactive flares all over the area....

            Comment

            • jeepman
              infrequent poster now
              • Apr 2004
              • 1982

              seems they know more than we do!

              http://atlanticcanadaaviationmuseum....vember2012.pdf
              JM

              Comment

              • Bruce
                Independent analyst
                • Jan 2000
                • 10222

                Perhaps they asked nicely .......

                I fail to see how anyone can be as disgusted as Tony when we dont actually know what was said! Lots of assumptions are being made, but if all Mr Manna did was said something along the lines of 'We went to Egypt, dismantled the aeroplane and put it in a box; Here are some pretty pictures', then no-one knows any more than we do.

                The assumption that he has delivered chapter and verse in a speech is quite wrong unless we KNOW otherwise.



                Bruce

                Comment

                • Snoopy7422
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Oct 2011
                  • 840

                  'Scandal' - What Scandal..?

                  This thread reads like an anoraks convention now. There is no 'scandal', only in the minds of few 'enthusiasts'. All this pompous, mawkish indignation is absurd. Coppings death isn't news or a surprise. It's not like anyone was waiting for him to walk back out of the desert at any moment.....!

                  I'm pleased if the a/c has been saved. There was a need for speed, given the vandalism the local rif-raf had inflicted in a few short weeks.

                  There are many, many thousands of bodies out there in that vaste wasteland. If Coppings body has been found, fine;- give his remains a dignified burial. If however, they have not been found, given the difficult situation in the region, then that's fine too. At least the a/c has been recovered. There's no reason his remains cannot be found at a later date.

                  I'm sure that the UK officials in Egypt will have done their best in the difficult circumstances.

                  I'm not heartless, but this mawkish posturing really is perfectly absurd.

                  Comment

                  • David Burke
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jan 2000
                    • 10027

                    The press release advertising the lecture certainly indicates far more than just a trip to Egypt to take it apart. I guess if your officially sanctioned to carry out the recovery and looking at the release representing the RAF museum there is quite a bit more than just illustrating a P-40 recovery.

                    Comment

                    • David Burke
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jan 2000
                      • 10027

                      Snoopy -some people might agree with that -the Italian team that visited the wreck -found human remains and indicated to the relevant authorities where they were might be just a little bit suprised that they were not recovered especially when the official reason given was that they didn't appear to be him -on the basis of no DNA sampling.
                      Whilst you might believe someone might go out and recover the remains - it seems to most that the effort won't be taken now the aircraft has been recovered -maybe the aircraft was deemed more important than a potential christian burial.

                      Comment

                      • Snoopy7422
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Oct 2011
                        • 840

                        ???

                        Originally posted by David Burke View Post
                        Snoopy -some people might agree with that -the Italian team that visited the wreck -found human remains and indicated to the relevant authorities where they were might be just a little bit suprised that they were not recovered especially when the official reason given was that they didn't appear to be him -on the basis of no DNA sampling.
                        Whilst you might believe someone might go out and recover the remains - it seems to most that the effort won't be taken now the aircraft has been recovered -maybe the aircraft was deemed more important than a potential christian burial.
                        There we go, it's framed in the same terms again.... 'More important'. I think that's a childish view. The fact is that the a/c was being vandalised and was having parts removed at an alarming rate. No extra haste was going to bring Copping back to life fer chrissakes. Sorry, but this is just more mush.

                        I think what been done has been practical - and if they've saved the a/c from destruction - a great success.

                        If the remains can be found and identified in due course, clearly it's a bonus. More/less important is really not the issue...

                        Comment

                        • Guest's Avatar
                          Guest

                          Originally posted by Snoopy7422 View Post
                          There we go, it's framed in the same terms again.... 'More important'. I think that's a childish view. The fact is that the a/c was being vandalised and was having parts removed at an alarming rate. No extra haste was going to bring Copping back to life fer chrissakes. Sorry, but this is just more mush.

                          I think what been done has been practical - and if they've saved the a/c from destruction - a great success.

                          If the remains can be found and identified in due course, clearly it's a bonus. More/less important is really not the issue...
                          Clearly, Snoopy7422, you have not met and talked with Flt Sgt Copping's family. I have. Along with Pat1968.

                          Childish? I don't think so.

                          Comment

                          • pat1968
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Apr 2004
                            • 260

                            Originally posted by Bruce View Post
                            Perhaps they asked nicely .......

                            I fail to see how anyone can be as disgusted as Tony when we dont actually know what was said! Lots of assumptions are being made, but if all Mr Manna did was said something along the lines of 'We went to Egypt, dismantled the aeroplane and put it in a box; Here are some pretty pictures', then no-one knows any more than we do.

                            The assumption that he has delivered chapter and verse in a speech is quite wrong unless we KNOW otherwise.



                            Bruce
                            Bruce let me be clear, the RAFM, the MOD, Tim Manna the DA at the British embassy in Cairo don't owe me anything. No explanation nothing, the family however are certainly owed something. Lets start with the basics, common courtesy and respect for starters. Are you telling me that feeding misinformation to the family of the pilot shows any real consideration to them? Taking months to even offer an apology and an explanation of how on earth in this day and age of instant global communication this could conceivably happen and now placing an account of the recovery of the aircraft in the public domain without first informing the family of that account?

                            I have to tell you that i don't think it really matters what has been said. It would not have taken a great deal of effort on the part of any of the above mentioned to contact the family and impart any relevant information gleaned during the recovery. However limited or inconclusive that information may be, they should have been the first people to be informed. Before any announcements are made or after dinner speeches made.

                            I believe TonyT is a former serviceman like myself and i fully understand why he is disgusted. You don't seem to understand how upsetting this is for the family. The effort required to handle this situation with some tact and compassion is minimal. Can you imagine this situation arising as a result of a casualty in Afghanistan? If it did there would be a public outcry. For some reason despite the fact that we know who the family are, where they are and that they have stated quite clearly that they would like try to uncover what happened to their family member and do anything in their power to honour his memory, the same set of standards are clearly not being applied. I and a good many other people do not think this is acceptable in todays day and age. I do not believe that we should have a double standards with regards to fallen servicemen. This case and many others before (an no doubt sadly more in the future!) quite clearly illustrate that this is without question the case.

                            I restate that i firmly believe that the organisations and individuals involved in the recovery were firmly focused on the recovery of the P40 and believed and probably still do that the public would not be too critical if they did little or nothing with regards to the search and recovery of the remains of Dennis Copping. Sadly judging by the lack of a public outcry and the willingness of the media to report on the fact that nothing has been done in this regard, It would appear they are correct. It will not stop me and a good many others who feel the same being thoroughly disgusted that our government and it agents can behave in such a callous and disrespectful way. I will do anything within my power to bring this into the public domain and try to resolve the issue one way or another.

                            I will also point out that there would have been a good deal of evidence at the crash site as to what happened to Dennis Copping. Once again the family have received no information from anybody in this regard and whether you like it or not the advertising of the talk given by Tim Manna stated quite clearly that 'the pilot had apparently died in the crash'. This is new information for the family. So is it accurate or more misinformation? It doesn't matter because no one has taken the trouble to explain any of this to the family and that is frankly disgusting and should never have happened. Not for a casualty from the last month or the last seventy years. Why? Because there are still friends and colleagues who can remember the events and family members who care deeply about the welfare and dignity of their loved ones, both in life and death. That is what has been forgotten here. If we are to call ourselves a civilised society then we have show consideration for the members of that society and especially for the people who maintain our freedom and their family members. Both pay a heavy price for that freedom and the enduring pain that is borne by these individuals should not be underestimated. Nor should it be explained away by semantics or a lack of specific knowledge of what has or hasn't been said. It is important and we should not accept this from people who represent us.

                            I have to say i find this whole saga extremely depressing. The number of people who seem to be defending the indefensible is truly depressing for me. If the RAFM, MOD, DA or anybody else want to defend themselves then let them do it. We have been promised on numerous occasions that statements will be forthcoming to no avail. I repeat, as other have before me, that this thread is about the search and hopefully eventual recovery of the remains of Dennis Copping. A 24 year old man who died, lost in the western desert, in the service of his country. It does not matter what the circumstances of his death may or may not be, frankly we will almost certainly never know the full facts. What should not be in doubt for anybody is that he was a very, very brave man indeed. Once again he and his loved ones deserve so much better.
                            Last edited by pat1968; 24th February 2013, 22:05.
                            "Only the dead see the end of the war" Plato

                            www.hawkerhind.com

                            Comment

                            • pat1968
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Apr 2004
                              • 260

                              Originally posted by Snoopy7422 View Post
                              This thread reads like an anoraks convention now. There is no 'scandal', only in the minds of few 'enthusiasts'. All this pompous, mawkish indignation is absurd. Coppings death isn't news or a surprise. It's not like anyone was waiting for him to walk back out of the desert at any moment.....!

                              I'm pleased if the a/c has been saved. There was a need for speed, given the vandalism the local rif-raf had inflicted in a few short weeks.

                              There are many, many thousands of bodies out there in that vaste wasteland. If Coppings body has been found, fine;- give his remains a dignified burial. If however, they have not been found, given the difficult situation in the region, then that's fine too. At least the a/c has been recovered. There's no reason his remains cannot be found at a later date.

                              I'm sure that the UK officials in Egypt will have done their best in the difficult circumstances.

                              I'm not heartless, but this mawkish posturing really is perfectly absurd.
                              I am not sure this post even deserves a response. You clearly have never served in the military and lost a colleague and friend. I can assure you if you had you wouldn't suggest that showing concern for the family of a fallen serviceman is childish.

                              If you seriously believe that anything has or will be done by the 'powers that be' with regards to the recovery and identification of the remains ALREADY DISCOVERED you are sadly deluded. The reason they will not do anything is because they believe that most people are like you. i.e. you know the price of everything and the value of nothing!

                              If you believe that showing common courtesy and respect to the family of a fallen serviceman is 'perfectly absurd' i am afraid you are idiot.

                              The aircraft has not been recovered it is sitting in a shipping container close to the El Alamein museum. So the idea that it has been saved and all is well is fantasy. 'I am sure they have done their best', where i come from that is a preamble for a flood of excuses. i.e. 'we did our best but failed miserably', that certainly seems to be appropriate in this case! You are sure that all that can be done is being done. I suggest you actually read back through this thread because you clearly do not seem to be able to grasp even the smallest salient points regarding what has taken place.
                              Last edited by pat1968; 24th February 2013, 19:15.
                              "Only the dead see the end of the war" Plato

                              www.hawkerhind.com

                              Comment

                              • Guest's Avatar
                                Guest

                                As Jeepman pointed out, our friends across the pond seem to know a good deal more than we do here about the P40 recovery. Here, there seems to be some continuing 'embargo' on discussion about the aircraft or release of photographs of its recovery. Not so in other parts of the globe, evidently.

                                I agree that we do not know whether Tim Manna actually knows that the pilot was "killed in the crash"...although that is what the publicity about the talk told us. And that is the problem. We do not know. More important, neither do the family.

                                The bigger problem, and the real scandal, is that neither do the family know whatever it is that, apparently, Tim Manna may know. And they have not been shown, either, the images of the aircraft and its recovery that is evidently being shared around the world by Tim Manna. That is just not right. If you are reading this, Tim, then the family very much want you to share with them what it is that you know. They may be contacted via Pat1968 on this forum.

                                Comment

                                • Bruce
                                  Independent analyst
                                  • Jan 2000
                                  • 10222

                                  Pat,

                                  You miss my point entirely.

                                  I am not referring to the bigger picture in this case; whatever the rights and wrongs of the thing, it is not relevant to the fact that we dont know if our knowledge of the subject has advanced as the result of a talk made by Mr Manna. That is the only point I was making; no more, no less.

                                  I do feel that we are in danger of attributing modern values to a historic incident - whatever the rights and wrongs of the MoD response.



                                  Bruce

                                  Comment

                                  • Peter
                                    Moderator
                                    • Jan 2000
                                    • 12506

                                    I sincerely feel so sorry for the family..
                                    Cheers,Peter
                                    "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

                                    Comment

                                    • Guest's Avatar
                                      Guest

                                      I am not sure that I am entirely clear what you mean by "modern values to a historic incident"?

                                      Do you mean the "modern values" to be the desire to find, recover, and identify the remains of Flt Sgt Copping in the 21st Century as opposed to the relative lack of importance that might have been placed upon such things during the heat of war?

                                      Comment

                                      • Discendo Duces
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Mar 2006
                                        • 253

                                        A new post in English on Qattara's website:

                                        < http://www.qattara.it/60-152%20arabic%20version.html >

                                        The gist of it seems to be that they have made a new alliance with Cairo University to facilitate the identification of some of the numerous human remains that they have found in the desert. The possibility that some may be of Dennis Copping is mentioned; this is not news, however, they have been stating this for some time.

                                        DD
                                        Last edited by Discendo Duces; 24th February 2013, 21:52.

                                        Comment

                                        • pat1968
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Apr 2004
                                          • 260

                                          Originally posted by Bruce View Post
                                          I do feel that we are in danger of attributing modern values to a historic incident - whatever the rights and wrongs of the MoD response.



                                          Bruce
                                          This is indeed a historic event but no more historic than any other modern casualty of war. In the context of family, friends and colleagues you could argue that as time passes those with a direct connection to the event are diminished. However there are both colleagues and family who remember the events and the man in question. How and why should the treatment of him and his family be treated differently from a modern casualty of war. You seem to believe that the passage of time either diminishes the emotional attachment that his family and colleagues feel for him and the events surrounding his death or reduces our collective responsibility for adequately dealing with the issue. I have to say that this neither my own personal experience or what i have observed in others.
                                          I have to say that again this is why this has been allowed to happen. Our government will treat us how we allow them to. If we want something different we will have to make them behave differently. Statements like this will only perpetuate the disinterest shown in this and many other similar cases. I actually think there is a much wider context to this issue. Is this really the kind of behaviour we have come to expect in our modern society? If it is then it is a sad state of affairs. In the end as I have stated previously what is required is not expensive, not particularly onerous, it just requires modicum of effort and care. I fail to see why the historic context of this event should affect that.
                                          "Only the dead see the end of the war" Plato

                                          www.hawkerhind.com

                                          Comment

                                          Unconfigured Ad Widget

                                          Collapse

                                           

                                          Working...
                                          X