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Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

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  • Rocketeer
    trying harder
    • Jan 2005
    • 5243

    Anyway.....had a good reply from George Young, my MP.......so we are keeping that important part in the eyes of the politicians.
    Tony Dyer
    https://www.facebook.com/TheAirDefen...homepage_panel

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    • jack windsor
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Dec 2008
      • 921

      your lucky,mines not even sent the automated reply...

      regards
      jack...

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      • Guest's Avatar
        Guest

        .......or mine!

        Tony T

        I don't think there are "conspiracy theories" as such.

        Either; he died at the scene and is buried close to the scene

        he walked into the desert and was either found and buried, or is still out there

        he was taken away by Bedoiun and died and is buried elsewhere

        his remains are those found with a piece of parachute by the Italian team at the rock outcrop

        Are there any other realistic possibilities?

        The only thing that is certain is that he is unaccounted for. And that the family are anxious to know the circumstances and, if possible, to have him found, identified and buried.

        No conspiracy theories as far as I can see?

        The only thing I would add is that whilst the remains 5km distant were discounted as being Flt Sgt Copping by the MOD with the Defence Attache, Captain Paul Collins, telling the UK press that he was: "...satisfied the remains were not those of Flt Sgt Copping". He did not qualify why. Later, the MOD have had to retract the definitive statement that the remains were certainly not those of Dennis Copping, stating that in fact they didn't know.

        That was the whole point of Pat1968's thread.
        Last edited by Tangmere1940; 14th November 2012, 13:29.

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        • l.garey
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Feb 2006
          • 1951

          And once again I say that if we do not get hold of the "Italian" bones, or others, we shall not be able to confirm or deny that they are those of Dennis Copping.
          No conspiracy, just a determined effort to get to the truth for the family's sake.
          Laurence

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          • Peter
            Moderator
            • Jan 2000
            • 12508

            Not sure about ww2 but I imagine it is the same as post war in a forced landing, you were to secure the aircraft hence closing canopys hatches etc etc until help arrived. Regardless I do hope for the families sake that something is done and either those remains are tested and proven that it is Dennis or not once and for all for the family's sake!
            Cheers,Peter
            "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

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            • dko
              dko
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Nov 2012
              • 94

              I think the pilot was saved in the forced landing, then after a time he walked in search of safety.
              Now the main problem is to understand in which direction he went !
              At the time the P40 Kittyhawk were provided with water and food for survival as states pilot Pujji (1942 flying Kittyhawks in North Africa)

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              • PeterVerney
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • May 2009
                • 1021

                I have today received a long letter from my MP. It doesn't add anything, but I quote :--

                "As you are aware, some human remains have been discovered five miles from his plane. However, you will be pleased to hear that the Government is fully aware of this case. The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has stated that its representative in the British Embassy in Cairo is in contact with the team which discovered the body and it understands that investigations are under way in Egypt to identify the human remains.

                The MOD has offered its assurances that it is in close contact with Flt Sgt Copping's family and will continue to keep them informed of developments."
                Man is not lost. Only temporarily uncertain of his position.

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                • TonyT
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Oct 2006
                  • 9023

                  Welcome DKO I am of the same opinion as you, cannot see anyone removing a body and then closing the canopy, the pilot might though if he feels it can be salvaged for spares.

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                  • Guest's Avatar
                    Guest

                    Originally posted by PeterVerney View Post
                    I have today received a long letter from my MP. It doesn't add anything, but I quote :--

                    "As you are aware, some human remains have been discovered five miles from his plane. However, you will be pleased to hear that the Government is fully aware of this case. The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has stated that its representative in the British Embassy in Cairo is in contact with the team which discovered the body and it understands that investigations are under way in Egypt to identify the human remains.

                    The MOD has offered its assurances that it is in close contact with Flt Sgt Copping's family and will continue to keep them informed of developments."
                    Thank you for that, Peter.

                    We shall see. Either way, if we are to believe what we are now told then there may well be some progress in determining matters.

                    It is unlikely that if had not been for the tenacity of a few, and perhaps the pressure put on by letters to MPs as a result of this thread, then there would not have been this apparent volte-face by the MOD who had, initially, given wholly misleading and incorrect information to the family.

                    However, this is only the end of the beginning and the case needs to be monitored to ensure it is expeditiously followed through and without further shennanigans.

                    I am sure the family would want to thank those who have applied pressure through their MPs. I know the family, and have met them, but I know that Pat1968 is in regular contact and will doubtless feed news/information back and forth. We just need to make sure this does not fall off the radar.
                    Last edited by Tangmere1940; 14th November 2012, 16:00.

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                    • l.garey
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Feb 2006
                      • 1951

                      Originally posted by PeterVerney View Post
                      I have today received a long letter from my MP. It doesn't add anything, but I quote :--

                      "As you are aware, some human remains have been discovered five miles from his plane. However, you will be pleased to hear that the Government is fully aware of this case. The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has stated that its representative in the British Embassy in Cairo is in contact with the team which discovered the body and it understands that investigations are under way in Egypt to identify the human remains.

                      The MOD has offered its assurances that it is in close contact with Flt Sgt Copping's family and will continue to keep them informed of developments."
                      1. Who is this representative in Cairo? Capt Collins?
                      2. In "contact with" which team, the Italians or the Poles?
                      3. Who in Egypt is "to identify the human remains"?
                      4. How will they do that? Have they recovered the bones found by the Italians? Do they have control samples from family members of Dennis Copping?
                      5. Is the MOD really in "close contact" with the family?
                      Laurence

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                        Laurence

                        I do rather echo the sentiments behind your questions - and have far from taken the MOD's response via an MP totally at face value. I am afraid that, as we both know, their past performance in this case very far from warrants that kind of trust.

                        I think all we can do is plug-on and hold the MOD to account if they don't act as they have now stated. Sadly, I am not holding my breath but I think the questions you ask are valid ones to pose. I wonder if they will be answered?

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                        • dko
                          dko
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Nov 2012
                          • 94

                          It is true that 70 years have passed, and probably many visits to the wreck, but it is strange that was not found any personal item of Copping and around no trace of cards , tools or bottles ..... everything was in order and the canopy closed.
                          My opinion is that he waited maybe one night then took the voluntary decision to seek salvation on their own feet. Probably took with him everything that could be useful for survival and made a kind of backpack with harness to be able to walk better.
                          Last edited by dko; 15th November 2012, 13:38.

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                          • dko
                            dko
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Nov 2012
                            • 94

                            From the diary of the co-pilot Robert Toner LADY BE GOOD crashed in the Libyan desert
                            in April 1943 at a latitude of 26 42'45 "N (similar to that of Copping) shows that:
                            "They were able to survive for eight days walking up to 160 km in the desert."
                            (after 15 years all the bodies were intact, untouched by anyone!)

                            On 21 April 1941 the italian airplane SM79 falls in the Libyan desert,
                            the airman Giovanni Romanini walked for over 90 km into the desert to seek help.
                            (after 20 years the body was intact, untouched by anyone!)

                            Tradition is that the Bedouins do not touch the corpses unknown

                            Comment

                            • l.garey
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Feb 2006
                              • 1951

                              Originally posted by dko View Post
                              Tradition is that the Bedouins do not touch the corpses unknown
                              This is not their tradition in my experience. See my post 95, above: in the case of Owen Watkinson they treated his body with respect and buried him close to where he died. I am assured by local friends that this is typical of their tradition, especially with regard to a fallen soldier.
                              Laurence

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                              • pat1968
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Apr 2004
                                • 260

                                This is also my understanding. Bedouin have a reputation for being very diligent in this regard, for both religeous and humanitarian reasons. You are assuming that the bodies of the crew of the lady be good and the Italian aircraft were found by Bedouin and left. I don't think there is any evidence to support this? The search for the crew of the lady be good would have taken in any local knowledge available at the time. Had the Bedouin been aware of the remains they would have been found very quickly.
                                They don't just show respect to the dead either my great uncle fought in north africa and was saved from certain death by the Bedouin after collapsing with dehydration and exposure. He couldn't say enough In praise of them.
                                "Only the dead see the end of the war" Plato

                                www.hawkerhind.com

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                                • l.garey
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Feb 2006
                                  • 1951

                                  Originally posted by PeterVerney View Post
                                  I have today received a long letter from my MP. It doesn't add anything, but I quote :--
                                  "the Government is fully aware of this case. The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has stated that its representative in the British Embassy in Cairo is in contact with the team which discovered the body and it understands that investigations are under way in Egypt to identify the human remains"
                                  I have received news today to the effect that, in spite of what PeterVerney's MP says, the team that found the human remains has NOT been contacted by the British Embassy in Cairo, and that the bones have NOT been given to anyone for analysis.
                                  Laurence

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                                  • dko
                                    dko
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Nov 2012
                                    • 94

                                    In my post 158, I did not want to open an anthropological question about the Bedouins of the Sahara, but pointed out that a young person with a minimum of food and water could survive and walk many miles in the desert !

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                                    • TonyT
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Oct 2006
                                      • 9023

                                      And don't forget Bill Lancaster, beware a picture in the thread of his mummified remains

                                      http://www.documentingreality.com/fo...-1962-a-51559/

                                      Comment

                                      • PeterVerney
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • May 2009
                                        • 1021

                                        I'm afraid my MP is one of Dave's blue eyed boys. I do not trust any of them.
                                        Man is not lost. Only temporarily uncertain of his position.

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                                        • pat1968
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Apr 2004
                                          • 260

                                          Originally posted by dko View Post
                                          the airman Giovanni Romanini walked for over 90 km into the desert to seek help.
                                          (after 20 years the body was intact, untouched by anyone!)
                                          if he is untouched by anyone that includes Bedouin

                                          Originally posted by dko View Post
                                          Tradition is that the Bedouins do not touch the corpses unknown
                                          I think both Laurence and i were referring to this comment. No offense meant just debating the possibilities!
                                          "Only the dead see the end of the war" Plato

                                          www.hawkerhind.com

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