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Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

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  • Air Ministry
    Rank 5 Registered User

    Originally Posted by Air Ministry:

    I'm struck by what appear to be footprints in the other photo (circled)

    Hi
    But surely they could just have been in a background photo used as the backdrop for the p-40 photo.
    Yes, you're quite right to point that out, but I was responding to the suggestion that the whole picture is a model diarama, not a photoshopped montage of real scenery and superimposed model.

    Regarding the lack of cowling damage, yes, it looks odd. However, what if the aeroplane was slowing, spinning and maybe even sliding backwards at the moment when seperation occurred, maybe that explains why they are intact? In the case of the P40 sliding backwards and slewing around while coming to a halt, the bent propellor blades now become an anchor, digging into the sand, and this is maybe what helped cause the final seperation?

    Look at the photo of the Beaufighter on the beach in this thread:

    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/sho...d.php?t=116162

    If I'm interpreting that photo correctly, the tail has seperated from the fuselage and they are now in the wrong correlation, i.e. the fuselage is pointing nose on at the tail. In fact it looks to me as though the very front section, the cockpit, has also seperated and is lying almost up against the tail.

    For the prop assembly to be behind the seemingly otherwise undamaged nose of the P40 doesn't seem so odd after all?

    I also accept that it must have alighted on sand, not the rocky surface seen in the pics otherwise it would have been torn to shreds.

    I hope the pics are genuine but I cling to the notion that, even so, they are much older than we think.

    Still, it's kept us all entertained for a few hours hasn't it? I'd only be pissed off to discover they are fake if I'd been pursuaded to invest money in a recovery expedition, and I'm not likely to do that!
    The garage that keeps on giving.

    Comment

    • paul178
      Rank 5 Registered User

      I really want to believe that this is not fake. There are some amazing modellers out there,look no further than our own forum.
      http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=105300

      and another one of his

      http://www.p40warhawk.com/smf/index....970&topic=17.0

      Like the rest of us I await further developments!
      I have kleptomania,But when it gets bad
      I take something for it.

      Comment

      • beachcomber
        Mike Brewser

        Having had a think on this:

        1/ I believe it is not a physical model, when working with materials to represent something on a larger scale they don't look or behave the same. Having looked at the links on other postings they are obviously models.

        2/ the lighting which if you have visited Africa you will know that the differences of an African sun which is surreal is correct.

        3/ The environment that it is sitting on as has been pointed out is not the same as 70 years ago

        So this leaves the option is it a Photoshopped creation, as has been pointed out the level of informed detail is staggering. The technical knowledge of the 'alleged' modeller is brilliant. So you are looking for either a very well informed digital artist with a lot of time on his hands or it's real.

        I work in digital imaging and I know that you can achieve amazing results. But then you have to ask yourself why, so I'm putting my foot into the real camp. Whether it's a current picture I don't know.
        Pedantic I haven't been that for 4 minutes 36 secs
        http://www.arc-design-it.co.uk

        Comment

        • Bruce
          Independent analyst

          Well, if I was the RAF Museum, and someone had brought it to me, I would be keeping it quiet too, especially if there were any chance at all of recovering it.

          I am very much in the 'real' camp, with the caveat that they could be old (20 yrs+) pictures that are only now coming to light.

          With the very greatest of respect to the modellers; as good as those models are - and they far, far , far outclass my own skills, they still look like models.

          Pictures 4 + 5 both look real; very much so.



          Bruce

          Comment

          • shepsair
            Rank 5 Registered User

            P40E

            Love this discussion.

            P40's seem to have a tendency to turn during force landing, whether from small surface area (undercarriage pods and torque) I don't know. There are photos of P40's that have turned during crash landings as well as ones that have lost propellers and reduction gear. Not too worried on damage/location and lack of to engine cowlings.

            The radiator / cowl is well mangled as you would expect.

            As airframes were continually being recovered/recycled in north Africa the pilot would close the cockpit to reduce the amount of sand being blown in. No problem with this being closed.

            Photos 4/5 must be real though whether current is the main question.

            Must be a photo of someone standing by the P40. Thats what I would do and would show the fashion style/age of photo.

            If close to civilisation it would have been found long ago. If not, then must be a lost pilot and cannot believe he would have survived unless picked up by LRDG.

            Need more, driving me mad!

            Mark

            Comment

            • Augsburgeagle
              Rank 5 Registered User

              Originally posted by Joe Petroni
              Got to be real, someone's nicked the clock.

              Always the first thing to go..


              Incidentally photo knicked from ebay as an example: Gunsight, Clock and compass removed as happened when an aircraft force-landed and the Pilot survived with his wits intact.

              Comment

              • David Burke
                Rank 5 Registered User

                The rear fuselage shot would be technically very difficult to model. It would be easier to produce that section as a 100% scale piece of replica airframe
                and then damage it. That would take a lot of skill but isnt impossible.

                The time it would take to do all that would far outweigh the benefits and anyone who had the skill to do that wouldnt be working on a 'hoax' they would be earning good money doing sheet metal on flyers.

                Comment

                • paul178
                  Rank 5 Registered User

                  From Britmodellers thread this link

                  http://www.network54.com/Forum/14967...ittyhawk+owner

                  That thread is worth reading as well

                  http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/i...234916834&st=0

                  HTH but I am sure it will only muddy the water!
                  I have kleptomania,But when it gets bad
                  I take something for it.

                  Comment

                  • ian_
                    Rank 5 Registered User

                    There's a piece of it on eBay!

                    Listed as Stuka but almost certainly the ripped off radiator gills. :diablo:
                    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1906688781...#ht_500wt_1202

                    Comment

                    • shepsair
                      Rank 5 Registered User

                      P40E / Kittyhawk IA

                      Additiinal discussion points.

                      Looks like the airframe is from 260 SAAF. You can see the HS code to the left of the fuselage roundal. Codes were small which fits. Trying to 'see' if there is the remains of an individual letter on the right. There is a vertical bar but not sure this is just a filler line? Otherwise ID letter could be B, D, E, F, H, K, M, N etc - a few options.

                      260Sqn took over Kittyhawks in Feb 1942 and moved to Theatre.

                      Least it is one squadron to look at!

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cr...frica_1942.jpg

                      regards

                      Mark

                      Comment

                      • paulmcmillan
                        Rank 5 Registered User

                        Mark typo is

                        260 Sqn RAF

                        If anyone can ID the Type of Kittyhawk - we can get a better idea of dates

                        260 Sqn had

                        Kittyhawk I, II Feb 1942 to May 1943
                        Kittyhawk III Dec 1942 to April 1944


                        Paul
                        Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

                        Comment

                        • scotavia
                          scotavia

                          Faked....motive not known. Skill levels are very high for CGI.

                          If it was real we would only hear about it after the recovery was in progress or already done. A model maker in Poland would be very aware of how much money this P40 could be worth and with a few hours web surfing contact a variety of potential buyers. When you read the saga of recovering the Hurricane from India you realise just how careful a buyer has to be. Its a minefield out there.

                          Comment

                          • shepsair
                            Rank 5 Registered User

                            P40E

                            Paul

                            Posted more on WIX

                            including

                            http://www.smashwords.com/books/down...hawk-pilot.txt

                            Yep, 260Sqn RAF. Lists bases and missing pilots!

                            As it has the older style yellow roundal, would say Kittyhawk IA. The Kittyhawk III photos show the later roundal style.

                            regards

                            Mark

                            Comment

                            • paulmcmillan
                              Rank 5 Registered User

                              Thanks Mark

                              Buz Busby's (probably the worlds authority on the history of the P-40) comments on WIX are very interesting

                              Paul
                              Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

                              Comment

                              • ~Alan~
                                Rank 5 Registered User

                                Is there anyone on here who has connections within the RAF, to see if they
                                have actually been asked to ID the aircraft ?

                                Which department would be involved ?
                                Engine Failure:.... A condition which occurs when all fuel tanks mysteriously become filled with air.

                                Comment

                                • Mark12
                                  MEANS MOTIVE OPPORTUNITY

                                  Libya or Egypt?

                                  I have a map reference from 20 or more years back in Egypt of a 'Spitfire' found by an Oil survey team. I had forgotten about that.

                                  They passed the details to the RAF Museum, who were not interested, who in turn passed them on to me.

                                  It is still extremely dangerous to swan around areas of Libya and Egypt because of the the uncharted minefields which they are still arguing who is going to pay for the removal.

                                  I bought this up when the Spitfire surfaced at the El Alamein museum but was advised to be very cautious. An 'adventure' outfit said it would take a three day round trip from Cairo to get me there and back with a minimum of two vehicles and I declined on the basis of cost and the probability of it being buried.

                                  I wonder if this could be the same aircraft.

                                  There was nothing visible on Google Earth.

                                  Mark
                                  "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney"

                                  Comment

                                  • shepsair
                                    Rank 5 Registered User

                                    P40E

                                    Of course to the lay person, everything with a roundal is a Spitfire!

                                    20 years ago, if the photos had said 1982 or 92 I would believe it more.

                                    If one and the same and 20 years ago I would gues now long gone

                                    Mark

                                    Comment

                                    • paulmcmillan
                                      Rank 5 Registered User

                                      260 Sqn "Kittyhawk I' bases

                                      Source Air Briatin Squadrons of the RAF

                                      Does not tell us much/if anything! Liby/ Egypt? but does indicate the fluidity of the war in the Desert, 33 bases in 16 Months!

                                      Benina 16 Jan 1942
                                      LG 101 1 Feb 1942
                                      LG 115 15 Feb 1942
                                      Gasr el Arid 10 Mar 1942
                                      Gambut 2 23 May 1942
                                      Bir el Baheira 6 Jun 1942
                                      LG 76 18 Jun 1942
                                      LG 115 & LG 85 19 Jun 1942
                                      LG 97 11 Jul 1942
                                      LG 75 6 Nov 1942
                                      Sidi Azeiz 10 Nov 1942
                                      Gambut Main 12 Nov 1942
                                      Gazala 15 Nov 1942
                                      Martuba 4 17 Nov 1942
                                      Belandah 10 Dec 1942
                                      Marble Arch 19 Dec 1942
                                      Gzina 21 Dec 1942
                                      Hamralet 1 1 Jan 1943
                                      Hamralet 3 4 Jan 1943
                                      Bir Dufan 12 Jan 1943
                                      Sedada 17 Jan 1943
                                      Bir Dufan 19 Jan 1943
                                      Castel Benito 23 Jan 1943
                                      Sorman 7 Feb 1943
                                      El Assa 14 Feb 1943
                                      Ben Gardane 2 Mar 1943
                                      Nefatia 8 Mar 1943
                                      Medenine Main 20 Mar 1943
                                      El Hamma 4 Apr 1943
                                      El Djern 13 Apr 1943
                                      Kairouan 18 Apr 1943
                                      Zuara 19 May 1943
                                      Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

                                      Comment

                                      • paulmcmillan
                                        Rank 5 Registered User

                                        Originally posted by shepsair
                                        Of course to the lay person, everything with a roundal is a Spitfire!

                                        20 years ago, if the photos had said 1982 or 92 I would believe it more.

                                        If one and the same and 20 years ago I would gues now long gone

                                        Mark
                                        Ok can anyone tell if those photos were taken using film or digital ??
                                        Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

                                        Comment

                                        • Dobbins
                                          Rank 5 Registered User

                                          Here's a model desert for comparison:

                                          http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/thunder/ep5/4.jpg

                                          http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/thunder/ep5/17.jpg

                                          Personally I don't see much difference!

                                          Comment

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