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Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

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  • Bruce
    Independent analyst
    • Jan 2000
    • 10225

    The video, I assume from the person who posted it, was taken at the same time as the others. The aircraft is therefore no more damaged than it was; we just know about it.

    Sadly, it's an irrelevance to most of the Egyptian people; we can only hope it can be recovered in as intact a way as possible.


    Bruce

    Comment

    • pat1968
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Apr 2004
      • 260

      This was not shot at the same time and there is considerably more damage to the aircraft than the first video. Plexi glass smashed, armoured glass looks like a rock has been smashed against it. I fear Andy is right if it stays where it is for too much longer there will be nothing left. I have another question who from RAFM/AHB is going to actually recover it? Or is the intention to have the Egyptian military 'take it apart' and send it to the UK?
      "Only the dead see the end of the war" Plato

      www.hawkerhind.com

      Comment

      • Bruce
        Independent analyst
        • Jan 2000
        • 10225

        It states 2012 -03 so it is within a few days of the other videos. I suspect the damage was done at the time the Egyptian military visited to remove the ammunition. The other videos show people clambering all over the canopy; that plexi would have been so brittle, it would have taken little to break it.


        Bruce

        Comment

        • Dobbins
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Feb 2012
          • 448

          well the cowling didn't just detach itself....

          Comment

          • pat1968
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Apr 2004
            • 260

            Nor did the port aileron which is now sitting on the ground under the wing!
            "Only the dead see the end of the war" Plato

            www.hawkerhind.com

            Comment

            • teejaymac
              Rank 3 Registered User
              • Apr 2012
              • 10

              Originally posted by walshlee
              Gents,

              Myself and another researcher here in Canada can nearly confirm that this is F/Sgt. Dennis C. Copping's (RAFVR) aircraft with the the airframe serial no. unknown as of yet. It did crash with in a "wheels down" landing as the gear was locked down. We can't disclose the events on that day or any other information until RAF/MOD or the RAFM release information from there investigation with respects to the pilot's demise and accident that resulted in this No. 260 Kittyhawk being where it is.

              Perhaps someone with access to No. 260's ORB can review the entries for June 1942 and help ID the serial number of the airframe.

              Just wanted to clear the air a bit.

              L.W.
              CAHS - Toronto
              If it was Flt Sgt Coppings It is obvious that the A/C serial will be ET574 as I pointed out some days ago in a post on Hyperscale which was repeated on here and 12 O'Clock High .
              No problem with the serial of the A/C that Flt Sgt Coppings was flying when he disappeared The problem is ,is this the A/C ?

              Terry

              Comment

              • Dobbins
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Feb 2012
                • 448

                Originally posted by Bruce
                I suspect the damage was done at the time the Egyptian military visited to remove the ammunition. The other videos show people clambering all over the canopy; that plexi would have been so brittle, it would have taken little to break it.
                Every panel except the front one? Vandalism more like.

                Comment

                • Peter
                  Moderator
                  • Jan 2000
                  • 12508

                  Wow... thats a shame though not a surprise...
                  Cheers,Peter
                  "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

                  Comment

                  • Snoopy7422
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Oct 2011
                    • 840

                    Argh...

                    Tragic to see this gem getting wrecked. Anyone got a Chinook handy...?

                    Comment

                    • Shay
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Oct 2006
                      • 24

                      I've never seen a thread with such Highs and Lows.

                      This kittyhawk is quickly losing it's Time capsule charm. What a shame people feel it's OK destroy something that clearly has importance, and for what? A couple knobs and a gas cap? Ridiculous. Looks like they used the supercharger compressor shaft to beat the plexi as it now lies on the floor of the cockpit.

                      Am I correct in seeing that the dataplate with the serial no. has been removed? Well atleast someone in the world knows the true identity of the aircraft. Even if they don't know they know it. Utterly asinine.

                      Can anyone tell me, are Kittyhawk engine panels marked in the same manner as Hurricanes (maybe Spits too)? I once saw a recovered Hurricane where the Ser No. was stenciled to the undeside of the engine cowl panels, I assume to prevent mix up with other aircraft if there were fit problems from one kite to the next. Possibly carried out on other RAF types?

                      I fear the wheels of bureaucracy and politics will not turn fast enough for this Kittyhawk.

                      Shay
                      ____________
                      Semper Fortis

                      Comment

                      • jeepman
                        infrequent poster now
                        • Apr 2004
                        • 1983

                        Sadly such an outcome was probably inevitable from the minute it was discovered. It was perhaps too optimistic of us all to expect that it could be saved in the state that it was first discovered and initially photographed.

                        The lengthy debate about whether it was real, or a model or photoshopped can't have helped either in terms of the speed or decisiveness of a response from the appropriate UK authorities.

                        I guess though that we could never expect an immediate rescue response - such things take time to organise and resource, particularly as the RAFM can no longer rely on the RAF to assist though a convenient desert training exercise or the like.

                        I hope it is saved and displayed as a sobering reminder of the desert campaign, perhaps adjacent to the existing "complete" P40, and that an attempt is made to find the last resting place of the pilot, should it be confirmed that he is still missing in action.

                        The LRDG Chev WA truck displayed unrestored at Lambeth shows how powerful such a presentation can be/
                        JM

                        Comment

                        • Peter
                          Moderator
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 12508

                          I noticed that large gear inside the cockpit as well.. Shame really.. I fear for the short term for this airframe...
                          Cheers,Peter
                          "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

                          Comment

                          • ozjag
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Apr 2007
                            • 834

                            What has been unscrewed from that tube in the cockpit?
                            Facebook: Aussie Cockpits

                            Comment

                            • JgerMarty
                              Plastic Pilot
                              • Mar 2005
                              • 561

                              How frustrating, send the SAS and a chinook in FFS!

                              Comment

                              • DC Page
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Oct 2008
                                • 318

                                Gentlemen,

                                The Kittyhawk has been used for target practice in recent days. The aircraft has numerous new bullet holes, the front quarter window glass has been shot out, the remaining plexi panels in the sliding canopy have probably been smashed or shot out, the armored front windscreen has been tested, showing impacts from at least 8 rounds at first glance, and the list goes on!

                                But dont worry, the aircraft is on government property so nothing bad can happen to it. Its being looked after by their top men. Were from the Government, and we're here to help!

                                Savages.








                                Attached Files

                                Comment

                                • Dan Jones
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Mar 2005
                                  • 20

                                  Is there any truth to the rumour that the a/c is to go to the RAF Museum? Or is that just wishful thinking on our part? The airplane is rapidly, rapidly being destroyed. I just can't believe the tragedy...

                                  Comment

                                  • Bruce
                                    Independent analyst
                                    • Jan 2000
                                    • 10225

                                    Guys, guys - I understand now that the video is from more recently than the others.

                                    However, while we wouldnt consider doing such things, much of the youth in our own countries certainly would. As I said before, this aircraft means nothing at all to the locals!

                                    There is a parallel with the FHC FW190 also found in time capsule condition back in the early 90's. At one point, it lost one aileron, the whole tail section, and much of the cockpit interior. The intact canopy was also broken. Whilst the tail was quickly found, it took ten years to track down the rest of the missing parts, which eventually turned up in a cellar in Germany!

                                    Sadly, we cant place a cordon around the P40, and it is inevitable that some damage will be done. As I said before, lets hope it can be rescued before it gets too bad.


                                    Bruce

                                    Comment

                                    • avion ancien
                                      Long ago and far away ...
                                      • Aug 2007
                                      • 5310

                                      Originally posted by shepsair
                                      Things don't move fast in this part of the world at the best of times.
                                      Except, perhaps, scrap metal?

                                      Comment

                                      • H87A-2
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Sep 2009
                                        • 31

                                        Originally posted by walshlee
                                        Gents,

                                        Myself and another researcher here in Canada can nearly confirm that this is F/Sgt. Dennis C. Copping's (RAFVR) aircraft with the the airframe serial no. unknown as of yet. It did crash with in a "wheels down" landing as the gear was locked down. We can't disclose the events on that day or any other information until RAF/MOD or the RAFM release information from there investigation with respects to the pilot's demise and accident that resulted in this No. 260 Kittyhawk being where it is.

                                        Perhaps someone with access to No. 260's ORB can review the entries for June 1942 and help ID the serial number of the airframe.

                                        Just wanted to clear the air a bit.

                                        L.W.
                                        CAHS - Toronto
                                        Washlee

                                        Its great you can almost confirm that this is Copping's aircraft, I can also help you out and almost confirm that its a P-40E-1CU modified at 107MU with the baggage hatch door lock. Bit of a throw away statement for both of us and really not much help. The belief is there is a very strong possibility that this is Copping's aircraft but there are still a number of Kittyhawk's missing that were never seen to go down, they just ceased to exist along with their pilots, so must be discounted. The only way to discount them is get a serial number.

                                        Why must these aircraft be discounted?, well they were either from 260SQDN or ex 260SQDN aircraft....so once again back to that serial number.

                                        What happened on that day is actually fairly well know as well, Copping took off as part of a small flight of at least two aircraft, possibly a third (third is unknown and can't be confirmed, in either 260ORB or 53RSU records), to ferry back damaged aircraft back to LG100 (home of 53RSU) (serial number of both aircraft known, and if there was a third it is also known).

                                        Its known that the pilot of the second aircraft saw him set the wrong course and actually stayed with him for a while, and saw things that the Ground crew and Aircrew would not have seen (and wrote them down). As for the First hand eye witness, I'll assume that the person is an LRDG member as these were about the only people who would have been this far out in the desert (and even a bit far for them). If a ground unit, then why is Copping still missing? I believe that what you have is someone that maybe saw the aircraft take off (certainly a probability if a Pilot of 260SQDN or Ground crew, or the other Units which where there at the time (dont need to tell you which ones because you have researched this so already know), maybe even heard the story of what happened (but that would make it second hand info only), but Im afraid none of that that makes a firsthand eye witness (unless LRDG, then please shake the mans hand for me, buy him a beer and let me know the cost).

                                        Statements such as you have made are not helpful in any form, the only way we can CONFIRM this is Copping's Aircraft is to get that serial number, everything else is speculation only until then. Now by the look of things all the normal ways to id the aircraft are missing, which leaves Factory records. So I hope you have a set handy when the number is obtained.

                                        Regards

                                        Buz

                                        Comment

                                        • RearGunner
                                          Rank 1 Registered User
                                          • Apr 2012
                                          • 9

                                          Vandalised & ripped apart by the locals = the same treatment it would recieve returning it to airworthy condition.

                                          Comment

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