Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

Collapse
X
Collapse
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Dr Strangelove
    Doktor Merkwrdigliebe
    • May 2008
    • 1384

    Originally posted by waghorn41
    To be honest I think the recovery of the pilot, although full of noble intentions, is unlikely.
    Maybe Waghorn, maybe, however IIRC the remains of the crew of Lady Be Good were found & they baled some distance from where the B24 ended up.

    Anything is possible.
    Sometimes it's better to be a bumblebee than it is to be Professor Heinkel.

    Comment

    • Guest's Avatar
      Guest

      Originally posted by Dobbins
      Only the housing, by the looks of it.

      Comment

      • pat1968
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Apr 2004
        • 260

        The initial five crew members of the lady be good were found after an extensive military operation involving a c130 and two cobra helicopters. One was discovered by BP oil company team by accident. I think this is likely to be the level of activity required to find the pilot. The lady be good crew were found 24 miles km from the aircraft. If you work on that figure that will mean e a search area(assuming he could have gone in any direction) of 1810 sq miles
        "Only the dead see the end of the war" Plato

        www.hawkerhind.com

        Comment

        • Shay
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Oct 2006
          • 24

          Originally posted by Dobbins
          It's still there.
          Or is it? Zooming in from the rear it looks, as Tangmere stated, as though just the housing is still present but the mirror itself is missing.

          https://picasaweb.google.com/1146825...82631914220402

          Shay
          ____________
          Semper Fortis

          Comment

          • Dobbins
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Feb 2012
            • 448

            Originally posted by Shay
            Or is it? Zooming in from the rear it looks, as Tangmere stated, as though just the housing is still present but the mirror itself is missing.

            https://picasaweb.google.com/1146825...82631914220402

            Shay
            ____________
            Semper Fortis
            Sorry yes you are right. Well spotted!

            Comment

            • shepsair
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Oct 2009
              • 284

              P40

              All I said was that the MOD would be looking at the available information - P40E, 260Sqn, summer 1942 as a start. Period.

              P40 identity needs to be confirmed first of all and once confirmed, the pilot name will then be known.

              After that, I do not know what would happen.

              Whether there is any markers on the ground will need to be checked though the site has been disturbed. The area does not seem to be of loose stone to facilitate making markers. Aircraft parts do not seem to have been set away on top of a rocky area as directional markers either.

              Believe the LBG crew were found in a very flat hard landscape and were partially visible on the terrain where they eventually surcumbed.

              It seems the area consists of layers of rock and layers of sand which is impossible to search even if you had the manpower to do so.

              I would hope any salvage team would search the approximate area including under the port wing where the parachute was. If not there, then unfortunately I believe any missing pilot would I believe remains missing.

              regards

              Mark

              Comment

              • shepsair
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Oct 2009
                • 284

                P40

                Pat/Andy,

                Would you say the MOD are always involved anyway through RAF Innsworth??

                As for this, needle in a field of haystacks rings a bell if you saw where it was.

                Only gets easy when you know where the needle was placed to within a very small area in the haystack!

                RAFM are the only ones who have the GPS location.

                regards

                Mark
                Attached Files

                Comment

                • Dave Homewood
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Mar 2004
                  • 5648

                  Back when poor Steve Fossett went missing in the US desert and the massive search for him turned up 5 or 6 other lost aircraft (before he was ever found) I wondered then about what might still be out in the large deserts sitting there unlocated. The thought crossed my mind there may well be intact aeroplanes in the greater Sahara and one day someone will find one if there are. This find proves testament to that. If half a dozen modern aeroplanes were found in the small region they were looking for Mr Fossett in then imagine what might still lie out there inthe Sahara as well as this amazing P-40E.
                  Wings Over Cambridge - Cambridge's and New Zealand's Contribution to the Wartime Air Forces

                  Wings Over New Zealand Forum

                  Comment

                  • pat1968
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Apr 2004
                    • 260

                    Andy is far better qualified to comment on that although I suspect he may have to bite his lip!
                    "Only the dead see the end of the war" Plato

                    www.hawkerhind.com

                    Comment

                    • David Burke
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jan 2000
                      • 10032

                      I guess the Egyptian military has the GPS location too and the people who discovered the wreck as well.

                      Comment

                      • Peter
                        Moderator
                        • Jan 2000
                        • 12518

                        There was a panoramio link to a photo of a marker on google earth but I cant remember wether this was close to the crash or not? It showed an arrow made of rocks and was a recent picture..
                        Cheers,Peter
                        "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

                        Comment

                        • shepsair
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Oct 2009
                          • 284

                          P40

                          The GPS was from the team that discovered her and the Egyptians work for the team as drivers etc.

                          Most of the Egyptians know the general location but not by GPS, not that it probably makes a difference.

                          GPS, limited but the important thing is the RAFM have it.

                          regards

                          Mark

                          Comment

                          • Guest's Avatar
                            Guest

                            Mark

                            Yes, JCCC Innsworth would certainly be very much part of the equation if a missing RAF casualty were involved and I would expect that they are already involved, with AHB, in pulling the casualty files for those who might already be considered possible 'candidates'. However, the remit of JCCC is not to search for or recover remains but to deal with remains that might be found and to organise burial and to deal with next of kin issues. In this respect, they do a wonderful job but they are not equipped to physically sarch and recover as the American JPAC teams are.

                            Comment

                            • JgerMarty
                              Plastic Pilot
                              • Mar 2005
                              • 561

                              Originally posted by pat1968
                              Have i missed something here? Since when did the MOD get involved in searching for missing servicemen from ww2 (or any other war for that matter?) I have heard of numerous instances where known remains in the UK and in other areas of the world have been pinpointed to exact locations only for the 'MOD' to veto any recovery effort? (noble intensions or not) When recoveries have taken place (as i understand it) in a least one case even with the express approval of the servicemens' family the MOD launched a (failed) prosecution and the remains (of the aircraft) were confiscated? I have heard of one case where remains were located underwater and the person who found the wreck on informing the nearest embassy being told to leave well alone despite the offer to recover the pilots remains and give him a decent burial gratis. Don't get me wrong as a former serviceman myself i think the recovery of the poor pilot of this P40 is a noble endeavor (not to mention tens of thousands of other poor soles who perished for our freedom) however I think the likely hood of him being found in such an enormous area after all this time are close to zero. The cost of launching a search in this location and given the political situation in egypt is not insignificant and I am sure there is no way either MOD civilians of current servicemen will be deployed officially in an area where the FCO is advising no one to visit unless it is essential. UK policy on this subject does not cover us (The UK) in glory to say the least and we would do well to take a leaf from some other nations on this. If there has been a shift in policy i for one support that 100% but i have to say i am sceptical.
                              Exactly, there's a RN Firefly wreck in Port Philip Bay in Melbourne which still has an English crew member aboard so I wouldn't hold my breath .....

                              Comment

                              • DC Page
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Oct 2008
                                • 318

                                On March 31st, 2012 at least 2 pictures were posted to the web that still contained valid EXIF data. The number of people who are in on this secret is no doubt growing by the minute. The fact that this piece of history is being "guarded" by the military of a country in turmoil gives me no comfort. Hoping for the best. Not holding my breath.

                                Comment

                                • Flat 12x2
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Sep 2003
                                  • 508

                                  Originally posted by Peter
                                  There was a panoramio link to a photo of a marker on google earth but I cant remember wether this was close to the crash or not? It showed an arrow made of rocks and was a recent picture..
                                  When Shay gave us the LG coordinates I put them into Google earth to have a look at any photos posted and saw the arrow you mentioned as in the link
                                  http://www.panoramio.com/photo/27625168
                                  It is 200 miles East of LG-185, but on the same radius from LG-106
                                  It is amazing at the number of WWII army trucks still out there, also pictured on Google earth.
                                  Wide open & turning left

                                  Comment

                                  • jeepman
                                    infrequent poster now
                                    • Apr 2004
                                    • 1986

                                    Originally posted by JgerMarty
                                    Exactly, there's a RN Firefly wreck in Port Philip Bay in Melbourne which still has an English crew member aboard so I wouldn't hold my breath .....
                                    and don't forget the Corsairs in Lake Sebago......
                                    JM

                                    Comment

                                    • Peter
                                      Moderator
                                      • Jan 2000
                                      • 12518

                                      Thanks Fiat, is that related to the P40 then or??
                                      Cheers,Peter
                                      "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

                                      Comment

                                      • Shay
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Oct 2006
                                        • 24

                                        Originally posted by Flat 12x2
                                        When Shay gave us the LG coordinates I put them into Google earth to have a look at any photos posted and saw the arrow you mentioned as in the link
                                        http://www.panoramio.com/photo/27625168
                                        It is 200 miles East of LG-185, but on the same radius from LG-106
                                        It is amazing at the number of WWII army trucks still out there, also pictured on Google earth.
                                        If anyone is interested, here is where I got the coordinates from:

                                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rica_Airfields

                                        There are plenty more and I entered EVERY one of the them into my copy of Google Earth. It was neat as it gave yet another glimpse into the war that most never think of beyond the text book. Accuracy i found in some cases isn't the greatest but you get the idea.

                                        Regarding that arrow. I saw that while strolling through GE. I know the caption says Old Air Field but that's exactly the type of signal I'd expect from a downed pilot.

                                        At the "8 Bells" location (2246'58.57"N, 2616'12.31"E ) The landing strip arrow and sign are made out of old British? gas cans?

                                        From Panaranmio





                                        There's a lot of desert out there and I doubt this will be the last relic to make a splash. It is amazzing the state of preservation of the Kittyhawk from the pics. I do wonder though after 70 years of intense UV how brittle items like the canavs, plexi, bakelite and plastic peices have become.

                                        Shepsair - Do you know if that satilite image is referenced to true north? I figured based on the Sun's shadows and the time stamps of the various pictures provided that the Kittyhawk was pointing South. Maybe slightly South East, but not staight east.

                                        Thx

                                        Shay
                                        ____________
                                        Semper Fortis

                                        Comment

                                        • DaveM2
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jan 2000
                                          • 761

                                          Don't know if anyone has seen Doug Norrie's comments on 12 O'Clock High?

                                          Dave


                                          In photo 10 of the picasaweb series of pictures it clearly shows the ref. H-87A-3 stamped in the wing and a part no. starting with 87....which would in indicate it was one of 540 Kittyhawks produced with the a/c serials in my previous thread. According to 'Curtiss Fighter Aircraft 1917-1948' by Francis Dean and Dan Hagedorn, page 294, the 540 aircraft were bought by the British government in Contract A-1835 commencing with AK591, before Lend Lease took effect.

                                          The pipe type exhausts indicate an early model Kittyhawk, Mk I or IA.

                                          Looking through my Air Britain serials book (through the 540 a/c), assuming it is a 260 Sqd a/c, I could see only two possibles that could be considered:
                                          AL134 lost on 7.9.1942
                                          AK693 lost on 16.5.1942

                                          If someone could check the 260 Sqd RAF ORB there may be some clues from the above dates.

                                          I look forward to seeing if anyone can add any further info to what I have put forward.

                                          Doug

                                          Comment

                                          Unconfigured Ad Widget

                                          Collapse

                                           

                                          Working...
                                          X