Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

Collapse
X
Collapse
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • paulmcmillan
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jan 2000
    • 2638

    Re difference beween LG.009 and LG.106 you have to remember Kttyhawk Pilot was written 40 years later using the memories and log books of Stocky Edwards and the data then available. It is likely they looked at the date and assumed Copping was evacuating with the rest of them when he went missing. However, we also know that the aircraft he was flying ET574 was also supposed to be damaged, flying with its undercarriage down and on its way to a repair unit. It is likely he was told to fly the not so lame duck back to a repair unit further way.
    Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

    Comment

    • Shay
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Oct 2006
      • 24

      Originally posted by paulmcmillan
      Re difference beween LG.009 and LG.106 you have to remember Kttyhawk Pilot was written 40 years later using the memories and log books of Stocky Edwards and the data then available. It is likely they looked at the date and assumed Copping was evacuating with the rest of them when he went missing. However, we also know that the aircraft he was flying ET574 was also supposed to be damaged, flying with its undercarriage down and on its way to a repair unit. It is likely he was told to fly the not so lame duck back to a repair unit further way.
      Agreed, facts and memories rarely align 100%.

      So I revisited the list of Landing Grounds and I discovered something. As I stated before, LG-009 (3058′0″N 2812′0″E) and LG-106 (3058′0″N 2839′0″E) are only 25+ miles apart. But there was another "LG-9". LG-185 at one time was called LG-9 and it's location (2332′0″N 2350′0″E) is south west of LG-106, in Libya. In fact if all the location coordinates are correct, LG-9 and LG106 are 600+ miles apart. Still within the specified range of "clean" P-40E (650 miles), but just within with a margin of less than 50 miles. Could this be the correct LG-9?

      Here is the intersting part, I find. If you plot a course from LG-9 to LG-106, the flightpath now takes you over the Al Wadi Al Jadid Desert. To me this makes more sense now. As someone mentioned here earlier, with fixed landing gear what would the range have been? Could Copping have jockied his fuel settings and flying characteristics in the hopes of making it to LG-106 or an alternate field?

      Paul I agree it seems, as always there is more to the story. Of course this conjecture is all dependent on the the accuracy of it's original author.

      Shay
      ____________
      Semper Fortis

      Comment

      • Snoopy7422
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Oct 2011
        • 840

        Speculation.

        A lot of speculation on this thread, most of it pretty pointless until detail are confirmed.
        Two quick points;-
        1. From the air, that bit of desert might have looked pretty good. However, mown grass often turns into standing corn on contact...
        2. If this a/c was being ferried with u/c locked-down to extreme range (An unlikely scenario in any case.), then it's most unlikely that he'd have flown fully-armed with all that unnecessary weight.

        I'm sure the real facts will surface soon enough.

        Comment

        • Pat Murphy
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Aug 2004
          • 41

          Desert P-40 260 Sqn

          This is an amazing story, it has been suggested that it might be one of Stocky Edwards Kittyhawks, I called him last night and he assures me he never crash landed a P-40 in the desert and was very amused by all the speculation it might be one of his aircraft. When the real facts are eventually determined I'm sure the story will be a good one and I shall pass the details on to Stocky Edwards.

          Comment

          • Peter
            Moderator
            • Jan 2000
            • 12498

            How did we suddenly jump from possibly being Copping to Stocky Edwards aircraft??
            Cheers,Peter
            "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

            Comment

            • Bruce
              Independent analyst
              • Jan 2000
              • 10219

              No idea - it certainly hasnt been suggested here!

              However, it was almost certainly flown by a number of different pilots - but until we have an identity, we just wont know.


              Bruce

              Comment

              • Fleet16b
                Fleet Pilot
                • Aug 2006
                • 267

                Originally posted by Peter
                How did we suddenly jump from possibly being Copping to Stocky Edwards aircraft??
                It all got started with a Vintage Wings of Canada article on their website.
                In their enthusiasm, they kind of jumped the gun a bit and have been amending the article since publishing it.
                BTW Stocky Edwards was contacted this week and confirms that he was not the pilot of the a/c and not one of his old mounts as far as he is concerned. As many have stated here and on other forums, wartime records found so far indicate that at least 12 P40's wore HS B.

                Comment

                • paulmcmillan
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Jan 2000
                  • 2638

                  Originally posted by Fleet16b
                  BTW Stocky Edwards was contacted this week and confirms that he was not the pilot of the a/c and not one of his old mounts as far as he is concerned. As many have stated here and on other forums, wartime records found so far indicate that at least 12 P40's wore HS B.
                  Interesting as if an I mean If ET574 it is mentioned in his book !

                  can someone ask Stocky how he recorded his flights in his log book? By serial or by sqn code? Thanks
                  Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

                  Comment

                  • shepsair
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Oct 2009
                    • 284

                    P40

                    Nice pics of Hurricanes (included 73Sqn 'arrow') on lorries and trailers for 53 RSU in Egypt/Libya.

                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/3941174...n/photostream/

                    This was one of the RSU units in the area.

                    regards

                    Mark

                    Comment

                    • shepsair
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Oct 2009
                      • 284

                      P40

                      Paul

                      Already asked!

                      Reading a bit more on F/Sgt Copping in Stocky Edwards book.

                      He was with 260Sqn in mid May 1942 and was classed as one of the 'newer men' along with a dozen more.

                      19th May 1942 Copping crash landed his Kittyhawk after combat (Italian And Luftwaffe).

                      Nothing listed for damage to any Kittyhawk's in last week of June though there must have been some. Due to the retreats it seems squadron records were sparse.

                      regards

                      Mark

                      Comment

                      • Peter
                        Moderator
                        • Jan 2000
                        • 12498

                        The mystery deepens..
                        Cheers,Peter
                        "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

                        Comment

                        • H87A-2
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Sep 2009
                          • 31

                          Ferry flight

                          Gents

                          Lets lay this to rest. Copping was departing LG09 and going to LG100 (home of 53RSU), he however, was not alone. but in a flight of two.

                          This has been confirmed by a logbook extract I have (I'm trying to get formal release so I can post a quick scan of the page).


                          Buz

                          Comment

                          • brewerjerry
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • May 2004
                            • 917

                            Originally posted by H87A-2
                            Gents

                            Lets lay this to rest. Copping was departing LG09 and going to LG100 (home of 53RSU), he however, was not alone. but in a flight of two.

                            This has been confirmed by a logbook extract I have (I'm trying to get formal release so I can post a quick scan of the page).


                            Buz
                            Hi
                            If he was flying in a flight of two, this might explain the knowledge posted earlier that "An incorrect course was set "
                            cheers
                            Jerry

                            Comment

                            • brewerjerry
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • May 2004
                              • 917

                              Originally posted by shepsair
                              Paul

                              Already asked!

                              Reading a bit more on F/Sgt Copping in Stocky Edwards book.

                              He was with 260Sqn in mid May 1942 and was classed as one of the 'newer men' along with a dozen more.

                              19th May 1942 Copping crash landed his Kittyhawk after combat (Italian And Luftwaffe).

                              Nothing listed for damage to any Kittyhawk's in last week of June though there must have been some. Due to the retreats it seems squadron records were sparse.

                              regards

                              Mark
                              Hi
                              Only luftwaffe claims i can find are :-

                              26. June 1941
                              Fliegerfhrer Afrika

                              26.06.41 Oblt. Ludwig Franzisket: 20 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  Ain-el-Gazala 13.45 Film C. 2036/II Nr.65982/41
                              26.06.41 Ofw. Herbert Kowalski: 3 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  Ain-el-Gazala 13.55 Film C. 2036/II Nr.65982/41

                              30. June 1941
                              Fliegerfhrer Afrika

                              30.06.41 Oblt. Ludwig Franzisket: 21 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40  nrdl. Marsa Lūccech 16.35 Film C. 2036/II Nr.65982/41


                              from tony wood files

                              cheers
                              Jerry

                              Comment

                              • H87A-2
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Sep 2009
                                • 31

                                Damaged Kittyhawks

                                Gents

                                28-6-42 - Reconnaissance - Time up 0620, time down 0730, Light accuarte A.A encountered 1 x Kittyhawk Cat 1 2 x Kittyhawk Cat II.

                                Source 260SQDN ORB

                                Buz

                                Comment

                                • DaveM2
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jan 2000
                                  • 757

                                  Could well have tangled with Italians flying with the 4 Stormo, not sure if their records survive.


                                  Dave

                                  Comment

                                  • shepsair
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Oct 2009
                                    • 284

                                    P40

                                    Buz

                                    That mornings reconnaissance sounds like a good option.

                                    The 'no' listings I mentioned was only in relation to the book.

                                    So one Cat1 and to Cat2 damage to three P40's on the morning of 28th June. The damage to the rear fuselage looks more like flak though again destroying the IFF has been discussed as an option though thought this was on a tray at the bottom of the rear fuselage?

                                    ET574 obviously had some damage to either the control linkages/connections to be unable to retract.

                                    Damage listings

                                    Categories 1 and 2 are those classified as being repairable using Squadron Technical resources.
                                    Category 3 repair requires station or Command resources. This level of damage is the lowest level of damage to be classified as a Major Accident and must be reported as such.
                                    Category 4 usually requires the aircraft to be returned to a Maintenance Unit in the UK for repair.
                                    Category 5 is considered a write off and the aircraft is beyond repair by RAF resources.


                                    Non retractable undercarriage is a serious issue and means it is non operational. Could probably be sorted out at the squadron but not with the retreat and moving being undertaken so seems it was decided to send these two back to 53RSU for repair.

                                    Why Copping went South is a whole other minefield.

                                    regards

                                    Mark

                                    GENERAL NOTE
                                    TO REITERATE - THE P40 HAS YET TO BE CONFIRMED AS BEING ET574 AND BELONGING TO F/SGT COPPING

                                    Comment

                                    • David Burke
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Jan 2000
                                      • 10025

                                      So why are people constantly exploring the circumstances of the pilot when its yet to be confirmed that its his aircraft!

                                      Comment

                                      • Guest's Avatar
                                        Guest

                                        David

                                        I think Mark and others have consistently laboured this very point!

                                        It may well be. It may not be. But I am sure that Mark and others are onto it and we will know soon enough.

                                        Until then, all else is idle speculation based upon a likely though as-yet unproven scenario.

                                        Comment

                                        • Bruce
                                          Independent analyst
                                          • Jan 2000
                                          • 10219

                                          Personally I am happy on the evidence we have at the moment that the rear fuselage damage originates from the IFF detonation, as there is no evidence I can see of penetration from the outside in (as it were!!)

                                          The whole tableaux is starting to point towards a sad ending to a brave man - whoever he was.

                                          I genuinely hope that the whole thing can be transported to a major museum and displayed as is - it will be a powerful exhibit indeed.



                                          Bruce

                                          Comment

                                          Unconfigured Ad Widget

                                          Collapse

                                           

                                          Working...
                                          X