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Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

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    Originally posted by bazv
    That was on French a/c Andy (possibly other european countries)

    rgds baz

    edit...yes some eastern european countries also had 'wrong' throttle sense
    I'm sure I knew that really....

    Comment

    • DC Page
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Oct 2008
      • 318

      Tangmere you are quite correct regarding throttle position, etc. It's simple chain of evidence. People who don't anything about the provenance of the pictures are actually factoring in throttle position and canopy position in their theories regarding just how "real" this aircraft is. That's pretty embarrassing really, just clueless.

      A true investigator could probably find some witness marks on the dial faces inside of various instruments on the panel that would still yield clues, remaining panel light bulbs might tell whether the bulb was lit at the moment of impact, etc. It looks like the control column grip took out the turn & bank indicator when it stopped. Most of the remaining clues will be forensic in nature, metallurgy alone will tell a great deal. But all this requires being there to inspect it. We don't know where that is or how long ago these pictures were taken. This aircraft may be stripped to the bone by now, maybe it's buried, or maybe it's gone. We know that it has been visited at least once since it came to rest, probably several times. Humans don't travel alone in these parts of the desert so it's probably been seen by several groups of petrol explorers over the years, and if the RAF know about it as the OP mentions in his post, then they've almost certainly visited this site at some point. Some of these remote desert sites have been used as waypoints and drop zones for the SAS on training missions, and we don't know the fate of the pilot. That could be a big factor in whether the RAF ever made a trip to inspect the site, and when.

      Regarding the throttle lever directions, I've never noticed anything in the Kittyhawk manual to indicate that the levers work in reverse to the U.S. versions but I'll check again. All the P-40 variations I've ever seen were cutoff position to the rear and full throttle was forward. Hence the term "balls to the wall."

      Comment

      • Dobbins
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Feb 2012
        • 448

        Originally posted by Mark12

        Just for comparison, that looks a hell of a lot more realistic

        Comment

        • paul178
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Mar 2011
          • 2925

          Still people on the forum have said why did he/she not photgraph the aircrafts serial number? This pic does not have the serial either apart from 64. Yes most know its Lady be Good. Its just another bit of war debris to a lot of people.
          I have kleptomania,But when it gets bad
          I take something for it.

          Comment

          • otis
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Dec 2009
            • 213

            Originally posted by Eddie
            Could be the leeward side has paint on it, and the side facing into the prevailing wind has been sandblasted. Or it could be lighting (given that the digicam would be a bit lost in those lighting conditions), or numerous other things.
            Neither side is the leeward side though. The distance shots show the starboard side, and there is the sandy camoflage and roundel on the tail and rear on that side. The close up shows the port and again, we have camo and roundel.

            The distance shot shows the front end is bare metal. This is confirmed in the close front-on shot, which confirms the cowling sides and rear are not sand painted.

            Comment

            • QldSpitty
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Apr 2006
              • 2628

              Throttle full forward could mean engine was running rough or combat damage so pilot was trying to get all the power out of her as he could before he hit the ground.Starting to think it,s real.
              "If the C.O. ask's you to be Tail End Charlie...just shoot him!!!....A Piece of Cake.
              http://spitfirea58-27.blogspot.com.au/

              Comment

              • Dobbins
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Feb 2012
                • 448

                I think most of us agree that the cockpit interior is real but that doesn't explain the other photos. Why is there not a trail of debris behind the aircraft and why does the top of the cowling look completely unscathed? Might it have come in wheels down? Are we assuming that it got lost and ran out of fuel?

                I still don't like photos 1 and 2. Why would someone take them from so far away, if as people are speculating it was film/slide and so shots could not be wasted?

                Comment

                • Worcs Aviation
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Mar 2009
                  • 301

                  Hi,

                  After seeing the massive interest in this thread I wondered if all the P40 experts could help me I.D this aircraft, maybe someone has records of the type.

                  All I have is RAF Maiduguri, Nigeria 1940-1

                  Also on the picture is written 'Drak's Tommahawk'

                  Remains of what could be a 6 on the fuselage.

                  Dont know if it will help with the big debate but any info would be great.

                  Cheers

                  Ant.

                  [ATTACH]221716[/ATTACH]

                  Comment

                  • Timc63
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jan 2012
                    • 76

                    Getting back to when the shot was taken, if I was a betting man I'd say quite recently. I'm convinced it's not a scan from slide film back in the 70's or 80's.

                    If you enlarge the LBG shot there's loads of speckles, minute hairs etc in the sky, now compare that with the second of the P40 shots, also note the dust bunnie circled in red, the sky's clear of these artifacts. Sure you could clean these up in editing software but somehow that would destroy the authenticity.



                    Another point why I think it was taken in the "digital age" is that news travels fast as we all know, look how these photos have stirred up so much interest globally within a week!

                    Surely if these had been taken donkeys years ago they would have surfaced long before now through a friend of a friend of a friend.

                    I'm sure there are real gems of photos up and down the land in attics that haven't seen the light of day yet, but they will clearly be from prints or slides.

                    BTW really enjoying reading everyones opinions, turning out to be a good thread fake or otherwise!

                    Cheers
                    Tim

                    Comment

                    • ...starfire
                      this space for rent
                      • Jun 2004
                      • 462

                      A user on flugzeugforum.de found those video-links:

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFe8C...feature=relmfu

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9LsK74J_W0

                      Now I am quite convinced it is not a model ...
                      Cheers
                      ...chris

                      Comment

                      • richw_82
                        White Knuckle Airlines
                        • Nov 2009
                        • 1680

                        That kind of seals it I think.

                        Comment

                        • Peter D Evans
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jun 2003
                          • 620

                          Plenty of humble pie with our roast dinners today me thinks...

                          Comment

                          • Dobbins
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Feb 2012
                            • 448

                            Originally posted by ...starfire
                            Hmmmm. The plot thickens! All they're interested in is the ammo! Good detective work there.

                            Now we have a location, Al Wadi al Jadid Desert.

                            Comment

                            • paulmcmillan
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jan 2000
                              • 2662

                              OMG!
                              Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

                              Comment

                              • Robert Edward
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Apr 2008
                                • 153

                                That confirms it then, and it is recent. Fantastic, I hope it is recovered before it is damaged.

                                Robert M.

                                Comment

                                • Growler
                                  In the Heart of England.
                                  • Feb 2004
                                  • 406

                                  Well, that'll silence the doubters. No sign of a serial, though.
                                  Along the edge of this airfield, the old prop-shaft airliners stand.
                                  Altimeters reading zero, formless memories lingering...


                                  theguitarsmith.com

                                  Comment

                                  • Moggy C
                                    Moderator
                                    • Jan 2000
                                    • 20534

                                    Looks pretty conclusive to me.

                                    Of course all those gentlemen could be CGI :diablo:
                                    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

                                    Comment

                                    • Mark_pilkington
                                      Rank 9999 Registered User
                                      • Jun 2004
                                      • 1791

                                      Originally posted by DC Page
                                      Cockpit View Forward



                                      Panel View


                                      Thanks for that enhancement work DC.

                                      "Its clearly CGI or the work of master modellers using large scale mockups to create a con on the warbird movement,smiles" I mean, how else could you get the scenary seen from the inside cockpit looking out through the crazed windscreen to line up with the landcape seen in all the external photos? (hmmm of course other than it being real that is)

                                      Originally posted by ...starfire
                                      A user on flugzeugforum.de found those video-links:

                                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFe8C...feature=relmfu

                                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9LsK74J_W0

                                      Now I am quite convinced it is not a model ...



                                      Originally posted by Moggy C
                                      Looks pretty conclusive to me.

                                      Of course all those gentlemen could be CGI :diablo:
                                      I think starfires links to you-tube just confirms its all an elaborate plot by modellers, they have obviously used plasticine figures and stop motion animation as per Gumby to create the illusion this 1/72 scale model has real people walking around it.

                                      Look at the detail of that model and diorama landscape, it could fool anyone.

                                      Smiles

                                      so its real,

                                      in Egypt

                                      and its still there

                                      So when is the UK PM going to pick up the phone, call Egypt and say "Burma's letting us dig up 20 spits, can we visit your place and dig up one p-40?"

                                      regards

                                      Mark Pilkington
                                      "Never has a Country so Big!, owed so Much!, to those who Flew!"

                                      Comment

                                      • tankbarrell
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Nov 2005
                                        • 248

                                        Humble pie anyone?

                                        Comment

                                        • TonyT
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Oct 2006
                                          • 9044

                                          Looks like finder informed military who have disarmed it, needs securing now it is known about. Told you it was real... Model lol..

                                          Comment

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