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Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

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  • paul178
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Mar 2011
    • 2925

    Bruce I posted that #103 there are some clever guys out there.

    So which one is the fake?







    You decide







    They are all the same model made by rod bettencourt

    http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/i...howtopic=73279
    I have kleptomania,But when it gets bad
    I take something for it.

    Comment

    • Dobbins
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Feb 2012
      • 448

      Originally posted by paul178
      Bruce I posted that #103 there are some clever guys out there.
      Yes, there are. I don't know why people are so easily convinced. The rivets and panels line up exactly? Well that's the kind of thing a good modeller will get right!

      Re. the codes/serial, surely if this is a fake then someone could have done their research and found a P40 that had been lost in action and used its serial?

      Comment

      • WebPilot
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2000
        • 1902

        It's an excellent Hustler model and well photographed. But also obviously a model as the depth of field gives it away in all three shots.

        Comment

        • Eddie
          Smart Ạrse Member
          • Jan 2000
          • 1384

          Originally posted by Dobbins
          Yes, there are. I don't know why people are so easily convinced. The rivets and panels line up exactly? Well that's the kind of thing a good modeller will get right!
          No - "match up exactly" to the real P40s that the posters in question have access to. And I simply have NEVER seen scale modellers get the structural damage/puckered skins right, or the appearance of flush rivets (or slotted screws for that matter).

          We have several people with lots of real world experience of the aircraft type in question, and they are convinced.

          Comment

          • paul178
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Mar 2011
            • 2925

            Originally posted by WebPilot
            It's an excellent Hustler model and well photographed. But also obviously a model as the depth of field gives it away in all three shots.
            Yes it does but placed for effect to show of his work with no intent to deceive anyone. Flicking through a book and without asking if it was fake most people would not spot it. So is the P40 genuine or an elaborate hoax? I don't know anymore. I want it to be real, but more than that I want to be put out of my suspence!

            I shall now go back to building my KC97G!
            I have kleptomania,But when it gets bad
            I take something for it.

            Comment

            • Eddie
              Smart Ạrse Member
              • Jan 2000
              • 1384

              Originally posted by paul178
              I shall now go back to building my KC97G!
              Here's the model I built earlier:


              :diablo:

              Comment

              • Jayce
                Order of the Bent Pitot
                • Nov 2010
                • 495

                As someone who's built all kinds of scale models over the years and worked with the real thing, I know what details and tricks of the trade to look for. I don't see any of the usual signs.

                There's only two ways it could possibly be a fake: Incredible CAD skills or incredible Panel beating skills and both with a lot of man hours in play.

                It's either THE best fake in history or it's very much the real thing.

                Comment

                • WebPilot
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Jan 2000
                  • 1902

                  Originally posted by paul178
                  Yes it does but placed for effect to show of his work with no intent to deceive anyone. Flicking through a book and without asking if it was fake most people would not spot it. So is the P40 genuine or an elaborate hoax? I don't know anymore. I want it to be real, but more than that I want to be put out of my suspence!

                  I shall now go back to building my KC97G!
                  You're probably right in that as it is very convincing. When you look at it in more detail you do see it for a model. I'm much in agreement with you and Jayce further down.

                  Comment

                  • paul178
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Mar 2011
                    • 2925

                    Originally posted by Eddie
                    Here's the model I built earlier:


                    :diablo:
                    Very nice try but its KC97L you have there! Still you have helped me out I really did not want to paint artic red on the wings and tail of mine!
                    I have kleptomania,But when it gets bad
                    I take something for it.

                    Comment

                    • otis
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Dec 2009
                      • 212

                      I can see why the action of the sand lying on the wings would have erased the paint from them as shown in picture 3.

                      What I can't follow is why all the paintwork is missing from the front of the aircraft, both on the sides and tops of the cowlings, but is present on both the rear fuselage sides, top and tailplane ?

                      It almost seems as though the rear paintwork, including roundels, has been added in pics 1 to 3, to lead the viewer into beleiving that this must be the same aircraft as pic 4.

                      Comment

                      • brewerjerry
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • May 2004
                        • 921

                        Originally posted by Jayce
                        ....
                        There's only two ways it could possibly be a fake: Incredible CAD skills or incredible Panel beating skills and both with a lot of man hours in play.

                        It's either THE best fake in history or it's very much the real thing.
                        Hi,
                        The kind of time someone in the desert may have, lots of spare time at the hotel in the evening maybe ?
                        I wrote a small book in my spare time evenings in the hotels, when I was on field service in europe and learnt to get by in two languages, it save me a fortune in beer money and kept me sane.

                        But seriously I would like it to be real and to go somewhere safe.
                        cheers
                        Jerry

                        Comment

                        • Eddie
                          Smart Ạrse Member
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 1384

                          Originally posted by otis
                          I can see why the action of the sand lying on the wings would have erased the paint from them as shown in picture 3.

                          What I can't follow is why all the paintwork is missing from the front of the aircraft, both on the sides and tops of the cowlings, but is present on both the rear fuselage sides, top and tailplane ?

                          It almost seems as though the rear paintwork, including roundels, has been added in pics 1 to 3, to lead the viewer into beleiving that this must be the same aircraft as pic 4.
                          Could be the leeward side has paint on it, and the side facing into the prevailing wind has been sandblasted. Or it could be lighting (given that the digicam would be a bit lost in those lighting conditions), or numerous other things.

                          Comment

                          • DC Page
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Oct 2008
                            • 318

                            Cockpit View Forward



                            Panel View

                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                            • Bruce
                              Independent analyst
                              • Jan 2000
                              • 10226

                              An interesting and pertinent post on Britmodeller here:

                              http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/i...post&p=1016084

                              Kind of encapsulates much of what we have been thinking.

                              The 'when' is the tricky bit!

                              Edit - In fact, thinking about it, if these were taken on Kodachrome, it would be quite logical that there were only 5 pictures; it not being common practise to waste film before the advent of digital. I am very much tending towards this being a picture taken in the 1960's.



                              Bruce

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                              • Guest's Avatar
                                Guest

                                Not sure why the throttle or canopy position should indicate one way or another whether this is fake or not. Surely, both could have been moved post crash (and probably would have been!) by other parties.

                                In any event, and pardon me for being slow or stupid here (but its Sunday am after a few bottles of red) but was not the open-close throttle direction on US aircraft the reverse as that on British/RAF aircraft??

                                Comment

                                • Mark12
                                  MEANS MOTIVE OPPORTUNITY
                                  • Jan 2000
                                  • 10868

                                  Bruce,

                                  Here is a 2003 scan of an original 1965 Kodachrome slide for analysis and comparison. I am likely to have applied minimum PSP for publication purposes.

                                  I am also of the view that this P-40 image is from the 1960/70's and well away from the coastal operational area.

                                  My money is on this being my 'Spitfire'.

                                  Time will tell.

                                  Mark

                                  "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney"

                                  Comment

                                  • bazv
                                    olde rigger
                                    • Feb 2005
                                    • 5884

                                    Originally posted by Tangmere1940
                                    In any event, and pardon me for being slow or stupid here (but its Sunday am after a few bottles of red) but was not the open-close throttle direction on US aircraft the reverse as that on British/RAF aircraft??
                                    That was on French a/c Andy (possibly other european countries)

                                    rgds baz

                                    edit...yes some eastern european countries also had 'wrong' throttle sense

                                    Comment

                                    • TonyT
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Oct 2006
                                      • 9042

                                      The close ups are not models, and I would say the fwd shots are not either, you cannot get that amount of detail or damage and lack of solidity in a model, no matter how good you are

                                      Comment

                                      • Dave Homewood
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Mar 2004
                                        • 5648

                                        Italian aircraft had the throttle backwards too.
                                        Wings Over Cambridge - Cambridge's and New Zealand's Contribution to the Wartime Air Forces

                                        Wings Over New Zealand Forum

                                        Comment

                                        • scotavia
                                          scotavia
                                          • Nov 2005
                                          • 2834

                                          Thanks Mark for the splendid LBG image, certainly got me re thinking about the P40 pics being from slides and explains why so few,I remember the feeling of being careful with film stock. Ok I am now convinced,real but when?

                                          Comment

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