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Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

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  • shepsair
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Oct 2009
    • 284

    Kittyhawk and RAFM

    Mark

    I said allegedly, as I have not seen the letter. I would have hoped is 20+ years ago it would have still got in the press somewhere. RAFM were still building up their collection and would have thought this would have been of interest.

    I don't know the bases in relation to the 'Spitfire' loss though whatever the situation, the aircraft was seriously lost!

    Most of the battles and movement were along the coast. If lost you head North till you reach the Med and then follow the roads etc. Why fly 120miles south?

    I WANT TO SEE A SERIAL

    regards

    Mark

    Comment

    • DC Page
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Oct 2008
      • 318

      Originally posted by Dobbins
      I am struggling with context here. Why was this initially posted on a modelling forum?
      Modeling sites have always been a major source of historic photos. They have often done years of research on particular models and do "walk around" detail shots. Sometimes they have rare photos and details that even the historians don't know or have gotten wrong.

      For the conspiracy/hoax theorists, maybe they put it up to show off their work.

      I'm' still amazed at how fixated you and others are regarding baseless speculation on why a person would take this particular shot and not that one. You're letting your imagination run wild with no idea why they took these shots, if they are the only ones, and why they chose only these shots to reveal to you and the world. Your thinking and imagination is seriously flawed.

      Regarding the spots on the aft port wing root, it's OIL. Not sweat or water. Use the same tricks I mentioned earlier and look at it again. There are many interesting details that nobody else seems to have discovered yet, just waiting for you to discover if you'll use a scientific approach and some critical thinking.

      Some of you have a very bright future in UFO and Elvis research.

      Thanks to shepsair and Mark12 for the details.

      Comment

      • DCK
        DCK
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Feb 2006
        • 1361

        Some of you have a very bright future in UFO and Elvis research.
        Not sure about Elvis, but for the first one, read "The Cometa Report". It might be interesting.
        Norwegian Spitfire Foundation

        http://www.norwegianspitfire.no/
        https://www.facebook.com/NorwegianSpitfireFoundation

        Comment

        • David Burke
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jan 2000
          • 10025

          Tankbarrel -often impact will jar the mechanism of an asi and freeze it.
          Therefore by looking at the registered speed on the asi might give a clue to impact speed to see if the damage ties up with indicated speed.

          Comment

          • Mark V
            Steve Atkin
            • Jun 2003
            • 3091

            Originally posted by David Burke
            Tankbarrel -often impact will jar the mechanism of an asi and freeze it.
            Therefore by looking at the registered speed on the asi might give a clue to impact speed to see if the damage ties up with indicated speed.
            That happens in high energy impacts, not a forced landing.
            www.warbirdcolour.co.uk

            Comment

            • Mark V
              Steve Atkin
              • Jun 2003
              • 3091

              Originally posted by Dobbins
              I am struggling with context here. Why was this initially posted on a modelling forum?
              Because the 'friend' of the discoverer was a member of said site and the membership are interested in historic aircraft.

              Originally posted by Air Ministry
              Looking at the external photo in particular, is there anyone out there still claiming this to be a model?
              Don't think so - I recreated that photo today, from an elevated position (to simulate an aircraft on its belly), with the hatch door slightly open, you cannot see the hatch opening as the door is in effect closer to you. I also note that every other tiny detail is absolutley correct, panel lines, numbers of screws, shapes of skins and relative position etc - perfect.

              Originally posted by Beaufighter VI
              As regards markings 75-88-465-289 shows lots of decals including North Africa Stars and Stripes, Brit and US markings but not "the door" markings.
              I love that drawing! Pete, the lettering on the door does not feature on the factory drawing, it looks hand painted to me - or at best a 'home-made' stencil applied in the field, err desert.
              www.warbirdcolour.co.uk

              Comment

              • DC Page
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Oct 2008
                • 318

                P-40N Preflight Inspection

                For those who haven't had the fortune of being around a P-40 while it is on the ground, here is a pre-flight walk around inspection that shows the panel in question and should give you some rough perspective of what you are looking at in the photos. Not exactly like the one on the Kittyhawk, but close enough for our purposes.

                Relevant section begins a 7:15 but the whole clip is useful.

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xeuaBsqbx4

                Comment

                • Bruce
                  Independent analyst
                  • Jan 2000
                  • 10219

                  Its worth noting for a moment that most of the people who are actively involved in Historic aircraft operation and preservation who have posted in this thread think its real.

                  Beau VI - has been involved in preservation and operation of these things since the beginning.

                  Mark 12 - has been involved since well before there was a preservation movement

                  Mark V - has access to a P40, which he has been eyeing up today

                  shepsair - is one of the foremost writers, researchers and historians concerned with recovered aircraft.

                  These people know their stuff.

                  Still, for the 'Its a model' brigade; will someone please show me a model that looks even half as good as this? No-one has yet!


                  Bruce

                  Comment

                  • Eddie
                    Smart Ạrse Member
                    • Jan 2000
                    • 1383

                    Originally posted by Bruce
                    Its worth noting for a moment that most of the people who are actively involved in Historic aircraft operation and preservation who have posted in this thread think its real.

                    Beau VI - has been involved in preservation and operation of these things since the beginning.

                    Mark 12 - has been involved since well before there was a preservation movement

                    Mark V - has access to a P40, which he has been eyeing up today

                    shepsair - is one of the foremost writers, researchers and historians concerned with recovered aircraft.

                    These people know their stuff.
                    You're too modest, Bruce! You DEFINITELY belong on that list!

                    Comment

                    • shepsair
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Oct 2009
                      • 284

                      P40E

                      Eddie

                      Totally agree.

                      Bruce - Thank you. Very much appreciated.

                      Like I said, as soon as we know the serial everything will be revealed very very quickly (though maybe not to much if it becomes a prospective article which is definitely on the cards!

                      Whether it is current or all taken when we were running around playing football, wearing flairs and chasing girls with ponytails is another matter!

                      Mark

                      Comment

                      • Bruce
                        Independent analyst
                        • Jan 2000
                        • 10219

                        I'm happy to play referee on this one, but its outside of my area of expertise.

                        Mark, I still wear Flares, but hate football.....



                        Bruce

                        Comment

                        • David Burke
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 10025

                          Mark V - An asi will not just freeze on high speed impact -break off a pitot tube and often the air is trapped .

                          Looking at the instruments - the asi is reading nothing - the altimeter seems to be registering 400 feet -the vario has definately jumped .

                          In all of this its clear to anyone who has experience of sheet metal that the damage to the rear fuselage is entirely consistant with the surroundings and the evidence of how the aircraft has impacted.

                          Its possible to build the section of rear fuselage to the degree we see in the photographs but to then damage it and keep it credible is incredibly difficult.
                          The forces involved in making that damage could only be as the result of a crash -pulling rivets to the extent they are would require a very high degree of talent and some kind of hydraulic equipment to pull the aluminium due to the forces involved . Its just not credible that someone would go to that effort.

                          Comment

                          • David Burke
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jan 2000
                            • 10025

                            I envisage that an identity will not immediately be forthcoming - there must already be at least one warbird operator seriously looking at recovering this machine if its current.

                            Comment

                            • Tillerman
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Sep 2005
                              • 301

                              I am no expert in table top photography or CGI, but I am sure the pictures are fake. They just don't look real at the first glance, they just don't look like the real thing. Something is not good with the light, the focus, the sharpness and the light. When I look at them my gut feeling screams FAKE.

                              Someone is pulling legs here and I bet he has great fun in following this discussion between amateurs, experts, believers and non-believers, I think.

                              Tillerman.
                              They locked up a man
                              who wanted to rule the world
                              The fools
                              They locked up the wrong man

                              -Leonard Cohen, Songs Of Love And Hate

                              Comment

                              • brewerjerry
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • May 2004
                                • 917

                                Originally posted by Bruce
                                Still, for the 'Its a model' brigade; will someone please show me a model that looks even half as good as this? No-one has yet!
                                Bruce
                                Hi
                                I am now in two minds over real or fake.

                                but here is a model link for example

                                http://www.p40warhawk.com/smf/index.php?topic=17.30
                                cheers
                                Jerry

                                Comment

                                • David Burke
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jan 2000
                                  • 10025

                                  Tillerman - simple answer ! The cockpit is 100% real -I know of no P-40 that matches the condition of this machine .

                                  Therefore this is a 'new' P-40

                                  Comment

                                  • shepsair
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Oct 2009
                                    • 284

                                    P40

                                    David,

                                    I am sure the identity can be narrowed down.

                                    Short and easy way is to see a photo of the serial or construction number.

                                    Long and easy way is to go to PRO/Kew and look at 260Sqn records and also Form 78's construction cards.

                                    Assuming it is 260Sqn hopefully dates for missing Kittyhawk IA and missing pilots can be worked out.

                                    Been promised some more photos so we will see.

                                    Whether a collector is on the case depends on when these photos were taken.

                                    Mark

                                    Comment

                                    • OHOPE
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Feb 2007
                                      • 359

                                      It looks real to me .

                                      Comment

                                      • vulcan558
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Mar 2004
                                        • 416

                                        Pictures look very real for me,
                                        Would have to go in to the realms of Macro mode for some or all if it was a model, cannot see any macro in these pics, distortion, barrelling, pin chusion, etc etc etc.

                                        Comment

                                        • Bruce
                                          Independent analyst
                                          • Jan 2000
                                          • 10219

                                          Originally posted by brewerjerry
                                          Hi
                                          I am now in two minds over real or fake.

                                          but here is a model link for example

                                          http://www.p40warhawk.com/smf/index.php?topic=17.30
                                          cheers
                                          Jerry
                                          Jerry,

                                          That is a brilliant, stupendous model - quite superb.

                                          But it still looks like a model. Nothing on it compares to photos 4+5.

                                          Its real, but when?


                                          Bruce

                                          Comment

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