Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

Collapse
X
Collapse
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • l.garey
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Feb 2006
    • 1954

    I'm just reading through the thread from the beginning. Long job. I thought i would highlight a remark by Dave Homewood on 20.4.2012. It was when there was doubt about the authenticity of the original photos from our Polish friends:

    People refuse to believe it's real because you cannot see the bloody shark's mouth!!

    Maybe he shouldn't have said that - someone at the museum was perhaps listening.
    Laurence

    Comment

    • DazDaMan
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Aug 2003
      • 18720

      Jesus.....
      Daren Cogdon

      Spitfire fanatic

      Comment

      • HALCYONMAN
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jun 2010
        • 95

        This day and age many people leave reviews [good and bad] comments and criticisms on places of interest they visit via Google, Trip Advisor and others, it will be interesting to see what is said if anything in due course.

        Comment

        • Dave Homewood
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Mar 2004
          • 5648

          Don't blame me for this utter catastrophe, l.garey.
          Wings Over Cambridge - Cambridge's and New Zealand's Contribution to the Wartime Air Forces

          Wings Over New Zealand Forum

          Comment

          • l.garey
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Feb 2006
            • 1954

            Not blaming you Dave. Sorry if it looked like it. I'm just feeling so upset by the news since yesterday that I reacted to that, very apt, old post of yours. My remark was tongue-in-cheek. Sorry.
            Laurence

            Comment

            • Dave Homewood
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Mar 2004
              • 5648

              Yeah all good. I'm as disappointed as you about what has happened to the aircraft.
              Wings Over Cambridge - Cambridge's and New Zealand's Contribution to the Wartime Air Forces

              Wings Over New Zealand Forum

              Comment

              • JollyGreenSlugg
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jul 2006
                • 206

                At least if they had to plaster a sharkmouth on it, they could've given it a happy one!

                Huzzah!


                Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20171230_214044.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	217.5 KB
ID:	3678289

                Comment

                • Junk Collector
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Aug 2006
                  • 1465

                  If the Egyptian Air Force, can't use the word restored, messed around with it, then they surely could have recovered it.

                  Anyway ultimately given the country's controls on historic artefacts leaving the country although that predominantly is regarding ancient artefacts, would they really have let it go out of the country.
                  Officially now a pensioner

                  Comment

                  • Moggy C
                    Moderator
                    • Jan 2000
                    • 20534

                    Presumably it belongs to the RAF? Or does "struck off charge" mean "finders keepers"?

                    This may be answered earlier in the thread but I am currently domestically preoccupied.

                    Moggy
                    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

                    Comment

                    • l.garey
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Feb 2006
                      • 1954

                      I wonder what was in Kennet's contract. I have seen the word "recover" used, but does that mean take from desert to museum car park, or deliver to Hendon, cash on delivery?
                      Laurence

                      Comment

                      • Bruce
                        Independent analyst
                        • Jan 2000
                        • 10226

                        I believe that was covered some pages ago, but I'm not going to wade back through it for detail. Essentially, the contract was to recover it ready for the RAFM to repatriate it. Kennet fulfilled their contract to the letter.

                        Comment

                        • l.garey
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Feb 2006
                          • 1954

                          Thanks Bruce. I missed the details
                          Laurence

                          Comment

                          • Lysanderlover
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • May 2015
                            • 83

                            Perhaps now the RAFM will be inspired to acquire a proper Kittyhawk to replace the cobbled up shell of a P-40 they currently exhibit. It is shocking and shameful what happened to the Copping aircraft, but what is done is done and for the most part irreversible. The RAFM needs to now move forward and seek another quality aircraft to represent this significant aircraft type for exhibition.

                            Comment

                            • J Boyle
                              With malice towards none
                              • Oct 2004
                              • 9812

                              Moggy called it a "great restoration failure."....but let's remember if the exact same thing had occurred in the 1950s-70s, they would have been applauded for it.

                              Appreciating something unrestored with original paint, etc. is a fairly new phenomena for mechanical things.
                              (Anyone who has viewed Antiques Roadshow knows that that has been the case for ancient furniture fora long time).

                              In the antique car would, some are taking the unrestored look to silly extremes...refusing to replace seat coverings when all but a few cm of original material remains, opting to keep it "original" by sitting on a not even close to correct 21st century horse blanket and giving the vehicle the look of a junker, or the idiot I saw in a national antique car publication who refuses to polish his brass radiator...a harmless cleaning step that certainty would have been done in period.

                              Still, you have to wonder how a presumably trained archivist/museum director could allow this? The answer is he was probably told to do it by higher-ups who saw the P-40 as simply a chance to put a rare type on display. Remember, Egypt is not the UK, their standards and priorities are different than what might be expected in the Home Counties.

                              And we might have to be careful about pointing fingers, I'm sure that there are some very strict conservationists out there who could make similar charges against the owners of data-plate rebuilds. I'm sure a lot of WWII paint and metal has been lost so enthusiasts can see more Spitfires and Mustangs at Duxford.

                              Likewise, I'm sure someone, somewhere is upset about removing rare wrecks from the wartime resting places...arguing that rare Japanese aircraft should have been left in place..to say nothing of the more common UK/US/German types that have been plucked from Russian forests. They would call such wrecks "cultural artifacts" and have them remain in place, even if no one saw them. To aviation fans, the preservation of an airframe is more important than those other concerns, but in the "big picture" of history who is to say who is right?

                              No doubt, they would argue against removing the P-40 from the desert, calling it Sgt. Copping's memorial and displaying it in a climate controlled diorama in London would be to lose its essence.

                              IIRC, several years ago here, a member accused someone of "cultural vandalism" for wanting to remove the rare B-17E known as "Swamp Ghost" from its western Pacific swamp where it was deteriorating. It was finally removed and has been displayed unrestored because it was realized that making it airworthy or even making it look operational, would be to erase its history.

                              If the P-40 in question had been a Stirling, Whirlwind or Typhoon, would be be too upset about erasing its history of it meant it might fly again?

                              In short, there are no easy answers here...
                              Last edited by J Boyle; 30th December 2017, 16:58.
                              There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

                              Comment

                              • Kenneth
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jan 2000
                                • 970

                                And we might have to be careful about pointing fingers, I'm sure that there are some very strict conservationists out there who could make similar charges against the owners of data-plate rebuilds. I'm sure a lot of WWII paint and metal has been lost so enthusiasts can see more Spitfires and Mustangs at Duxford.
                                No.

                                There are no mitigating circumstances.

                                It was a complete time-capsule. It was 2012, not 1972.

                                Sheer and utter vandalism, committed by ignorants.
                                The Largest German-Language Aviation Forum on the Internet

                                Comment

                                • Bruce
                                  Independent analyst
                                  • Jan 2000
                                  • 10226

                                  The mitigating circumstance, quite simply is that we are talking about a third world country. They have not the budget, or the people or the skills to carry out the work as we might. From our point of view, it is certainly vandalism by our standards, but to their director I am sure it is a shining example of what is possible. Different standards.

                                  Comment

                                  • David Burke
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jan 2000
                                    • 10032

                                    Lysanderlover - I doubt the RAFM are that bothered about doing something about the P-40 at Hendon. It fits in the same category as the P-51D thats at Cosford. If they massively cared about some of these aircraft they wouldnt have the likes of the Cosford Catalina sat out in the rain.

                                    Comment

                                    • Lysanderlover
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • May 2015
                                      • 83

                                      It seems the Egyptians are not the only ones with less than credible museum staff.

                                      Comment

                                      • VX927
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Feb 2006
                                        • 901

                                        It is a real shame what has happened to this aircraft, however just to balance things up, I think there’s a fair few Egyptian artefacts sat in the British Museum that they would quite like back!!

                                        Comment

                                        • QldSpitty
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Apr 2006
                                          • 2628

                                          I think they spent more on painting the thing than by simply storing it inside,propping it up on a frame and having a simple story board.The P40 at Malta is a good example..
                                          "If the C.O. ask's you to be Tail End Charlie...just shoot him!!!....A Piece of Cake.
                                          http://spitfirea58-27.blogspot.com.au/

                                          Comment

                                          Unconfigured Ad Widget

                                          Collapse

                                           

                                          Working...
                                          X