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Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

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  • Mark12
    MEANS MOTIVE OPPORTUNITY
    • Jan 2000
    • 10868

    Originally posted by pat1968 View Post
    You mean you didn't get all of that information from the emails you sent out over the weekend to people involved in the Afghan recovery? What did they tell you?
    You are avoiding answering the question. Your cost breakdowns re the P-40. Just broad brush will be fine.

    Just the one email at the weekend to the party that wanted me to recover the Afghan Hinds...that would have been ahead of you.

    I, or rather my wife, turned it down but I recommended he use a current or former service man with connections, to at least arrive in Kabul to a friendly face and a secure base.

    I was invited to look at the containers and photograph the contents on his property when they arrived.

    I published/posted a couple of shots on his behalf some 62 weeks later on the 'Plane Talk' Forum and two days after your news release in Aeroplane Monthly, if that was your concern. I think he wanted to show them off minimally as he was proud of the result.

    If you were the sole financier, recoverer, importer, container procurer, transporter and owner, then that was not mentioned to me at that time.

    Mark
    Last edited by Mark12; 18th February 2016, 19:21.
    "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney"

    Comment

    • pat1968
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Apr 2004
      • 260

      Originally posted by Mark12 View Post
      You are avoiding answering the question. Your cost breakdowns re the P-40. Just broad brush will be fine.

      Just the one email at the weekend to the party that wanted me to recover the Afghan Hinds...that would have been ahead of you.
      Lucky you passed then!

      Originally posted by Mark12 View Post
      I was invited to look at the containers and photograph the contents on his property when they arrived.

      I published a couple of shots on his behalf some time later, if that was your concern. I think he wanted to show them off minimally as he was proud of the result.

      If you were the sole financier, recoverer, importer, container procurer, transporter and owner, then that was not mentioned to me at that time.

      Mark
      You were specifically told not publish any pictures by 'the party', that was for his benefit by the way not mine. I had agreed to keep a lid on the recovery. You didn't publish them you posted them on this forum to show people you knew more than they did. He was certainly proud of the result and quite rightly, however, when 'the party' found out what you had done the air turned purple i can assure you! Do you really expect people to believe that if we wanted to publish pictures we couldn't have just released the pictures to the aviation press? You seem to be a bit hazy when it comes to agreements so i am not surprised you are having issues remembering the facts.

      The fact some of the details were not mentioned to you at the time is probably that it had nothing to do with you. So now that you have been fishing for information what did you find out?

      As far as a quote for dismantling and moving a relatively small single engined aeroplane a few hundred miles across Egypt. Almost everyone in the west makes the same assumptions. The idea that logistics are difficult to arrange in countries like Egypt and Afghanistan is a myth. In both countries logistics like this are a fact of life, consequently the equipment required to move people vehicles and material across difficult terrain is readily available. The roads in Egypt are good so the main challenge is the move out of the desert onto the MSR. If you want to know how much it costs to treck into the desert ask anyone who has every carried out an organised trip into the desert in Egypt how much it costs a day, this will cover your guide, passes, vehicles food accommodation and security. You have taken trips into the desert how much did you pay? You need a crane that can negotiate the terrain and a means of transporting your cargo. Add to that the cost of the container. The cost of four days in the desert apparently cost 30K per day! I can tell you that figure would have covered the Afghan recovery and I made three separate trips to Afghanistan before it was finished. Before the recovery team arrived tour guides were making day trips to the Kittyhawk for a few hundred dollars from Farafra. I will tell you what I could get you a quote at UK prices (which are considerably higher) and I guarantee it will still be a fraction of the 120k quoted. Interestingly enough I have just moved two 40 foot containers in the UK, 200 miles. We had to hire a crane to lift them out of the location, total cost 2200. Even at 10 times that price you still have nearly 100k in hand! Whilst you are thinking about that you need to factor in the fact that average wages in Egypt are about five times less than the UK.

      What is more difficult and what everyone assumes is easy is getting permission to carry out the recovery and transfer of ownership as has been demonstrated quite admirably in this case. This was not news to the RAFM at the time they were making their arrangements because I wrote to them and told them!

      While you are at it don't take my word for it why don't you ask a few other people like Elliott, Andy etc they have all been involved in aircraft recoveries from various locations. It is a bit like locking the stable door after the horse has bolted but at least you will get your answer!
      Last edited by pat1968; 13th January 2016, 19:32.
      "Only the dead see the end of the war" Plato

      www.hawkerhind.com

      Comment

      • Mark12
        MEANS MOTIVE OPPORTUNITY
        • Jan 2000
        • 10868

        Originally posted by pat1968 View Post

        You were specifically told not publish any pictures by 'the party', that was for his benefit by the way not mine. I had agreed to keep a lid on the recovery. You didn't publish them you posted them on this forum to show people you knew more than they did. He was certainly proud of the result and quite rightly, however, when 'the party' found out what you had done the air turned purple i can assure you! Do you really expect people to believe that if we wanted to publish pictures we couldn't have just released the pictures to the aviation press?
        Absolutely right. So you must ask yourself the question why would I jeopardize what is now a 35 year relationship that has included recoveries together from Scandinavia and Africa and also a solo recovery of a Spitfire for that party from Australia...Oh! and he sent me a Christmas card this year. Strange that.

        I published/posted a couple of shots on the owners behalf some 62 weeks after the Hinds arrived in the UK on the 'Plane Talk' Forum and two days after the Patrick Chriswick news release in Aeroplane Monthly.

        Now, would you like to clarify the reported images of the desert Spitfire or were we a little economical with the actualit ?
        Last edited by Mark12; 18th February 2016, 19:26.
        "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney"

        Comment

        • pat1968
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Apr 2004
          • 260

          Originally posted by Mark12 View Post
          Absolutely right. So you must ask yourself the question why would I jeopardize what is now a 35 year relationship that has included recoveries together from Scandinavia and Africa and also a solo recovery of a Spitfire for that party from Australia...Oh! and he sent me a Christmas card this year. Strange that.

          Now, would you like to clarify the reported images of the desert Spitfire or were we a little economical with the actualit ?
          And he still told you to mind your own business? Shame! Thinking about it i could offer a hypothesis but i am not sure you would approve.

          As for Spitfires I would be delighted to take this up with you in person. This thread is about Dennis Copping and the P40.

          So now that I have answered all of your questions when are you going to explain where the 120k went?
          Last edited by pat1968; 13th January 2016, 19:58.
          "Only the dead see the end of the war" Plato

          www.hawkerhind.com

          Comment

          • Bruce
            Independent analyst
            • Jan 2000
            • 10226

            Gentlemen!

            Enough. We are way OT, and this discussion should be moved to private message or email.

            Thank you.


            Bruce

            Comment

            • The Beach
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jun 2009
              • 86

              thank you Bruce it seems to be getting a bit like children playing my dads bigger than your dad very silly really
              If flying was difficult the engineers would do it

              Comment

              • Jagan
                bharatiyayuddhapakshulu
                • Jan 2000
                • 610

                Originally posted by The Beach View Post
                thank you Bruce it seems to be getting a bit like children playing my dads bigger than your dad very silly really
                c'mon admit it.. it is STILL a fascinating discussion...
                My Books: The Westland Wapiti in the Indian Air Force (1933-1943) | Eagles over Bangladesh | The India-Pakistan Air War of 1965

                Comment

                • Junk Collector
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Aug 2006
                  • 1465

                  Originally posted by Jagan View Post
                  c'mon admit it.. it is STILL a fascinating discussion...
                  For sure it is. Personally some aspects of this unfolding story come as no surprise to me at all, I used the word predicable earlier.

                  Before reading the thread again having missed a part of the in between section, which I will do, and forgetting the recovery, how has it come about that once recovered it has been obtained by another party, if that is now the case.

                  What was supposed to be the plan after the container arrived at El Alamein, and how had or not the RAFM secured ownership of it. Little point going to all that trouble if you are essentially recovering it for ultimately someone else and ending up out of pocket.
                  Officially now a pensioner

                  Comment

                  • pat1968
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Apr 2004
                    • 260

                    Originally posted by Junk Collector View Post
                    Before reading the thread again having missed a part of the in between section, which I will do, and forgetting the recovery, how has it come about that once recovered it has been obtained by another party, if that is now the case.

                    What was supposed to be the plan after the container arrived at El Alamein, and how had or not the RAFM secured ownership of it. Little point going to all that trouble if you are essentially recovering it for ultimately someone else and ending up out of pocket.
                    A very good question!
                    "Only the dead see the end of the war" Plato

                    www.hawkerhind.com

                    Comment

                    • Bruce
                      Independent analyst
                      • Jan 2000
                      • 10226

                      Originally posted by Jagan View Post
                      c'mon admit it.. it is STILL a fascinating discussion...
                      Jagan,

                      No problem at all with discussing the P40, but we strayed into Afghanistan.

                      Comment

                      • trumper
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Aug 2003
                        • 6741

                        Originally posted by Bruce View Post
                        Jagan,

                        No problem at all with discussing the P40, but we strayed into Afghanistan.
                        Lets hope the P40 hasn't then.

                        Comment

                        • DaveF68
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jun 2004
                          • 1791

                          Originally posted by Junk Collector View Post
                          For sure it is. Personally some aspects of this unfolding story come as no surprise to me at all, I used the word predicable earlier.

                          Before reading the thread again having missed a part of the in between section, which I will do, and forgetting the recovery, how has it come about that once recovered it has been obtained by another party, if that is now the case.

                          What was supposed to be the plan after the container arrived at El Alamein, and how had or not the RAFM secured ownership of it. Little point going to all that trouble if you are essentially recovering it for ultimately someone else and ending up out of pocket.
                          It was posted earlier that the plan was to have a ceremony at El Alemein handing over the P-40 to the UK Govt - The Prime MInister or Foreign Secretary were mentioned as attendees. Then the Egyptian Govt changed.

                          Post 2118

                          http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...02#post2285302
                          Last edited by DaveF68; 14th January 2016, 20:42.

                          Comment

                          • Junk Collector
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Aug 2006
                            • 1465

                            Still seems odd, like your wife using your credit card to buy you an expensive present then she gives it to your neighbour
                            Officially now a pensioner

                            Comment

                            • TonyL1962
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Mar 2014
                              • 84

                              Agree - so there was going to be a ceremony? Well, it seems odd that there has been no suggestion of an actual plan to move the container onwards to the UK. I'm sure it wasn't going to be just "let's see how we go from here" and phone up some removers to come pick it up and stick it on the next available cargo ship from Alexandria to the UK?

                              Comment

                              • detective
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Sep 2013
                                • 138

                                Originally posted by TonyL1962 View Post
                                Agree - so there was going to be a ceremony? Well, it seems odd that there has been no suggestion of an actual plan to move the container onwards to the UK. I'm sure it wasn't going to be just "let's see how we go from here" and phone up some removers to come pick it up and stick it on the next available cargo ship from Alexandria to the UK?


                                ....Please .. We must understand.......There was a change of Government, and the ensuing general upheaval that came with it.....

                                Comment

                                • Sopwith
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Mar 2009
                                  • 1525

                                  So at the end of the day does anyone know conclusively where the container containing said P40 is now?

                                  Comment

                                  • Bruce
                                    Independent analyst
                                    • Jan 2000
                                    • 10226

                                    Heh,

                                    Those that know will have been reading this storm on an internet forum, and laughing quietly to themselves. I somehow doubt that it is in any danger.

                                    Comment

                                    • stuart gowans
                                      Not a real Spitfire
                                      • Dec 2005
                                      • 2005

                                      Originally posted by Junk Collector View Post
                                      Still seems odd, like your wife using your credit card to buy you an expensive present then she gives it to your neighbour

                                      Sorry to hear about that.......
                                      Why be your own worse critic, that's what the forum is for.

                                      Comment

                                      • Junk Collector
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Aug 2006
                                        • 1465

                                        Be funny if it has just been moved down the road to a different storage point because it was in the way !

                                        As for the change of government, when this happened, before undertaking the recovery,surely the whole thing would have had to have been re discussed with the new government prior to any recovery attempt
                                        Officially now a pensioner

                                        Comment

                                        • John Green
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Mar 2011
                                          • 6643

                                          JC

                                          You're pre-supposing that the people responsible for planning and executing the transaction are capable of thinking ahead and 'crossing all the tees and dotting all the eyes'.

                                          Comment

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