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Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

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  • trumper
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Aug 2003
    • 6722

    Originally posted by Bruce View Post

    There seems to be an assumption that the remains should be obvious, or easily identifiable, when we have no idea what happened to the poor chap. There are many possible scenarios, and we have no idea where to start.
    We have seen similiar before https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Be_Good_(aircraft) " T/Sgt Ripslinger had walked in the desert for over 200 miles from the crash site and was 100 miles from the base."
    The term looking for a needle in a haystack comes to mind.

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    • jack windsor
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Dec 2008
      • 921

      The term looking for a needle in a haystack comes to mind.[/QUOTE]

      or as the Australian in charge of looking for MH370 said, " its not looking for the needle in a haystack your looking for the haystack "

      but the 1 possibly 2 sets of remains should have been checked, as they were in the credible walking range from the crash site...

      Comment

      • Bruce
        Independent analyst
        • Jan 2000
        • 10224

        Originally posted by stuart gowans View Post
        Bruce, presumably your statement needs to be filed under the heading "I know more than I can tell" because I certainly don't know where it is!
        Not really - the point is that many more people read this forum than commentate on it. I know, and can tell, that includes people who are close to the action. Me? I know nothing!

        Comment

        • Bruce
          Independent analyst
          • Jan 2000
          • 10224

          Originally posted by jack windsor View Post
          The term looking for a needle in a haystack comes to mind.

          or as the Australian in charge of looking for MH370 said, " its not looking for the needle in a haystack your looking for the haystack "

          but the 1 possibly 2 sets of remains should have been checked, as they were in the credible walking range from the crash site...
          Were they?

          As the Italian team never stated where they had found the remains, despite being asked, how do you expect anyone else to find them? Which direction are you going to go?

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          • DaveF68
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jun 2004
            • 1790

            Originally posted by Bruce View Post
            Were they?

            As the Italian team never stated where they had found the remains, despite being asked, how do you expect anyone else to find them? Which direction are you going to go?
            And people need to remember that the area to be searched increases exponentially by the square of the didstance you have walked. So 1 mile means ~3 sq mile to search, 2 miles is 12 sq miles and 3 miles is 28 Sq miles. How long would it take to find anything in that area?

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            • jack windsor
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Dec 2008
              • 921

              but the 1 possibly 2 sets of remains should have been checked, as they were in the credible walking range from the crash site...[/QUOTE]

              If the location has not been revealed then I'm sorry for my statement, but I thought the finders (was it the Italians) had given the position...

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              • pat1968
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Apr 2004
                • 260

                Originally posted by Bruce View Post
                Were they?

                As the Italian team never stated where they had found the remains, despite being asked, how do you expect anyone else to find them? Which direction are you going to go?
                I think the Italians might dispute that? How is saying i am in the know but i can't tell you different for the Brits (and Americans) but not the Italians?

                I have no idea where the remains were found i was not privy to that information. The Italians stated that this information was passed on to the Egyptians and the British Embassy. Remains were then apparently tested at an as yet unidentified location. Information was then released to the family which even the most cursory review demonstrated was absolute nonsense. Despite this we are apparently to rely on the assertion that the location was never received. All a little selective in my opinion!
                "Only the dead see the end of the war" Plato

                www.hawkerhind.com

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                • Guest's Avatar
                  Guest

                  Whilst the current focus seems to be on the P-40 itself it is the pilot, and his family, that surely ought to be the main focus.

                  It is a fact that the family have been misled, confused and sometimes given wrong information. Possibly even lied to. However, much of that may well be down to confusion, misunderstanding and incompetence rather than anything else.

                  As an example, however, in relation to the recovered bones the Egyptian authorities claim they DNA tested them and wrote to the British Embassy to say these tests had proved 'negative' in that they were unable to obtain DNA to compare to Dennis's relatives due to the age of the remains, contamination and their exposure to the sun. However, in the same letter they went on to say that 'the DNA in all the bones come from the same person...'

                  This is at once contradictory; how is it possible to say that the DNA from all the bones match if they were unable to extract DNA?

                  This is just one example of very many huge, odd and unexplained discrepancies in the whole unfortunate saga of poor Dennis Copping and his P-40.

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                  • jack windsor
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Dec 2008
                    • 921

                    Andy I think the P.40 has had a lot more positive consideration than Dennis...

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                    • pat1968
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Apr 2004
                      • 260

                      Originally posted by Tangmere1940 View Post
                      This is at once contradictory; how is it possible to say that the DNA from all the bones match if they were unable to extract DNA?
                      Or if no one told them where they were in the first place!
                      "Only the dead see the end of the war" Plato

                      www.hawkerhind.com

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                      • Guest's Avatar
                        Guest

                        Originally posted by jack windsor View Post
                        Andy I think the P.40 has had a lot more positive consideration than Dennis...
                        Sadly, that may be so. But that is not the perspective of the family.

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                        • Bruce
                          Independent analyst
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 10224

                          My understanding is that the only people to see the bones (whatever they were, and Laurence Garey did confirm they were human from an examination of the pictures), and photograph them, were the Italian team. I further understand that they had been asked to provide details of the location by representatives of the AHB, but no reply was forthcoming. I suggest that no testing was ever done, and this is no more than a red herring sadly. From the point of view of the family, they would be perfectly entitled to find out why they had been lied to.

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                          • pat1968
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Apr 2004
                            • 260

                            Originally posted by Bruce View Post
                            My understanding is that the only people to see the bones (whatever they were, and Laurence Garey did confirm they were human from an examination of the pictures), and photograph them, were the Italian team. I further understand that they had been asked to provide details of the location by representatives of the AHB, but no reply was forthcoming. I suggest that no testing was ever done, and this is no more than a red herring sadly. From the point of view of the family, they would be perfectly entitled to find out why they had been lied to.
                            As i have stated a mass of misinformation was issued by the MOD but we are still to consider them to be a reliable source of information? The bones in the picture were human that is a fact or do you question Laurences' identification?

                            I am afraid selecting an unsubstantiated claim from a British source over and unconfirmed Italian one doesn't prove anything beyond the fact that some Brits consider themselves above the Italians (and Egyptians). Is there actually any evidence to support one claim over the other?
                            "Only the dead see the end of the war" Plato

                            www.hawkerhind.com

                            Comment

                            • Bruce
                              Independent analyst
                              • Jan 2000
                              • 10224

                              It's a fair point. Ultimately, it's an issue of trust.

                              I have a couple of sources that I do trust. Uncharacteristically for me, I have challenged the Italians to answer my questions on here, and they have failed so to do. For me, that gives credence to my own sources. I accept that others will have different points of view.

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                              • Guest's Avatar
                                Guest

                                I would have to agree about the credibility of the Italians.

                                I have, however, seen the correspondence between the Egyptian authorities and British Embassy in which they are clear; they had in their possession the recovered bones and say they tested them.

                                So, are we also to disbelieve what the Egyptian authorities told the British Embassy?

                                Certainly, there has been a good deal of obfuscation and misinformation from many of the parties involved in this sorry saga. That, I'm afraid, is a matter of fact rather than a matter of opinion.
                                Last edited by Tangmere1940; 8th January 2016, 21:57. Reason: typo

                                Comment

                                • J Boyle
                                  With malice towards none
                                  • Oct 2004
                                  • 9792

                                  Originally posted by jack windsor View Post
                                  Andy I think the P.40 has had a lot more positive consideration than Dennis...
                                  That's P-40 (hyphen not a dot).
                                  There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

                                  Comment

                                  • pat1968
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Apr 2004
                                    • 260

                                    Originally posted by Bruce View Post
                                    It's a fair point. Ultimately, it's an issue of trust.

                                    I have a couple of sources that I do trust. Uncharacteristically for me, I have challenged the Italians to answer my questions on here, and they have failed so to do. For me, that gives credence to my own sources. I accept that others will have different points of view.
                                    Bruce to be fair the Italians were practically character assassinated on this thread by a good number of people while at the same time the RAFM, MOD and the FCO were hailed as paragons of virtue over a fairly prolonged period of time. What motivation was/is there for the Italians to divulge that information on this forum?

                                    While we are on the subject why would they lie about telling the authorities about the location of the bones? I have no evidence one way or another, on either point, but i struggle to come up with a scenario which would benefit them if they lied about it?
                                    Last edited by pat1968; 8th January 2016, 23:03.
                                    "Only the dead see the end of the war" Plato

                                    www.hawkerhind.com

                                    Comment

                                    • jack windsor
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Dec 2008
                                      • 921

                                      Originally posted by J Boyle View Post
                                      That's P-40 (hyphen not a dot).
                                      That's my first occasion of falling foul of the literacy police of 2016...358 days to go.

                                      regards,
                                      jack...
                                      Last edited by jack windsor; 9th January 2016, 09:41. Reason: sausage fingers plus slow mind...

                                      Comment

                                      • David Burke
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jan 2000
                                        • 10028

                                        First occasion of 2016 ! You mean you might have done it in years before and not learnt your lesson!
                                        Shameful !

                                        Comment

                                        • Mark12
                                          MEANS MOTIVE OPPORTUNITY
                                          • Jan 2000
                                          • 10863

                                          Originally posted by pat1968 View Post
                                          While we are on the subject why would they lie about telling the authorities about the location of the bones? I have no evidence one way or another, on either point, but i struggle to come up with a scenario which would benefit them if they lied about it?
                                          Did you consider that if the Italians had plans possibly to facilitate their own recovery of the P-40, or perhaps to make a TV documentary, both for commercial reasons, the relevant permissions required from the Egyptian Military/Government would be complicated and compromised if there were human remains actually on site rather than 5-8 Km away from the P-40?

                                          Mark
                                          "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney"

                                          Comment

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