Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

Collapse
X
Collapse
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • trumper
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Aug 2003
    • 6723

    Originally posted by TonyL1962 View Post
    As safe as any other Egyptian historical artifact - and despite government changes the Egyptians do value their historical stuff and many of them rely on the income from tourists. There's already a spitfire at Alamein that has not been stolen or sold for a data plate rebuild!
    So did some of the other middle Eastern countries but look at them now being blown up ,destroyed.Income from tourists may and will be dropping big time from alot of the tourist countries i'm afraid.

    Comment

    • Kenneth
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jan 2000
      • 969

      Originally posted by John Green View Post
      Except for my original point and the theme of my comments, which many conveniently overlook. If an aircraft can be flown, then fly it, don't bury it in yet another dessicated museum where by its passivity, it fails utterly to provoke the imagination. How can it, in comparison with the sight and sound of a live aeroplane thundering along the flightline ?

      Whether one has just one or fifty flying examples matters not. What is important is that they are flying, in full view of the hundreds of thousands who make up the spectator numbers at displays. Thus, in all their incomparable beauty, they are exhibited for the greater good. Now tell me that that is a bad thing.
      You're simply not getting it, sorry.
      The Largest German-Language Aviation Forum on the Internet

      Comment

      • Kenneth
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2000
        • 969

        Originally posted by DaveF68 View Post
        ... they then had title to the P-40...
        "Title" to the P-40. Granted by whom? On which legal basis? In which form? Would a piece of paper shoved under the nose of one or more corrupt Egypt civil servants, or a bunch of Kalschnikov-toting, IS-friendly, crazy Beduins impress them?
        The Largest German-Language Aviation Forum on the Internet

        Comment

        • DoraNineFan
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Oct 2005
          • 233

          Originally posted by TonyL1962 View Post
          Couple of things...

          1. Moggy - does your information about the aircraft being in the US come from any sort of reliable source? Or are you yourself just fishing?

          2. Mark12 - you suggest that you have a source that placed the container in Egypt within the time it would take to get it to the US by sea - how reliable is this source?

          3. In my opinion this aircraft should not leave Egypt and should go to the museum at El Alamein. A far more fitting and poignant location than either the RAF museum or the US. It would almost certainly cost less to create a small building to house it there than to ship it out of the country.
          Post #1955 from user "qattara" indicated that the container was now gone from El Alamein. Perhaps "qattara" can update or clarify? Activity stopped due to "force majeure", roughly translated as "unavoidable circumstances" and the tone of the message suggests that things fell apart.

          Originally posted by qattara View Post
          [ATTACH=CONFIG]229010[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]229011[/ATTACH]dear all
          now the story of p40 is in the public domain, of course not in its original form, but mystified by malicious false leads.
          what we had to say we told you all stakeholders as possible, but we have always had an answer and a thank you enough.
          Our vice president has been questioned by Egyptian secret services, has provided guidance to the British authorities dopodiche we only had problems emormi: Website blocked, telephones intercepted obstacles.
          the bones have disappeared at some point, someone had secretly recuparate (not us) and I do not know what has been done.
          The wp of the resort were not known to anyone, but obviously a spy or an interception nullified the subsequent work of a DNA test. (we had already contacted the family and we had the available sample).
          RAI has a dedicated transmission to P40 and to our discovery, but unfortunately we had to stop due to force majeure.
          Also the container is gone from Alamein and do not know what happened
          Last edited by DoraNineFan; 6th January 2016, 20:24.

          Comment

          • DaveM2
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jan 2000
            • 761

            Originally posted by Kenneth View Post
            You're simply not getting it, sorry.
            Extremists never 'get it' sadly. The 'fly them all brigade' are no different to the 'ground them all' brigade. Fortunately common sense and reality more often than not win the day and we can enjoy both.
            Last edited by DaveM2; 6th January 2016, 20:32.

            Comment

            • John Green
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Mar 2011
              • 6643

              Originally posted by Kenneth View Post
              You're simply not getting it, sorry.
              Please don't apologise, just try harder.

              Comment

              • John Green
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Mar 2011
                • 6643

                Originally posted by DaveM2 View Post
                Extremists never 'get it' sadly. The 'fly them all brigade' are no different to the 'ground them all' brigade. Fortunately common sense and reality more often than not win the day and we can enjoy both.
                Well written Dave M2 ! The voice of commonsense and a whole heap better than some of your recent offerings.

                Comment

                • farnboroughrob
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Dec 2008
                  • 617

                  The thought of destroying this priceless artifact to make another airworthy P-40 turns my stomach. This may be the only 100% original RAF WW2 aircraft in existence. This is as it was in 1942, there is no other RAF aircraft that can boast that. I think we all understand Egypt can be a place of murky deals but there can only be two claims of title to this. Firstly it is still a RAF aircraft and of course the other is the Egyptian Government. It would therefore seem logical that the RAFM traded a Spitfire for the recovery of one of their own aircraft not expecting a counter claim, but only time will tell?

                  Comment

                  • David Burke
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jan 2000
                    • 10028

                    Not quite ! Its had various instruments removed -guns - various bits of light vandalism and harness cut at some stage in the past. In no way can it be described as a 'time capsule' .

                    As to ownership -as the British Defence Attache pointed out -we abandoned it there -therefore its the property of the Egyptian government.

                    In terms of the exchange -the RAFM traded a Spitfire for the recovery of the P-40 to a safe location.

                    I think we need to distance ourselves from the notion that all foreigners carry out 'murky' deals ! We as a nation have carried out plenty of 'deals' that are decidedly shady !

                    Comment

                    • Mark_pilkington
                      Rank 9999 Registered User
                      • Jun 2004
                      • 1791

                      Originally posted by DaveM2 View Post
                      Extremists never 'get it' sadly. The 'fly them all brigade' are no different to the 'ground them all' brigade. Fortunately common sense and reality more often than not win the day and we can enjoy both.
                      Well written Dave M2 ! The voice of common sense and a whole heap better than some of the other offerings you are having to put up with here from others!

                      (I think some will "never get it")

                      We live in a time where its largely possible to punch out a new metal P-40 or Spitfire with little original material required to commence with, (other than an identity for registration purposes) hence there is no need to consume this time capsule into such a process.

                      Some of your opposing debaters have proposed building metal mosquitos in the past, so I really cant see their argument for consuming an authentic conserved ww2 survivor into a reconstructed / reproduction 21st Century flyer, when its already possible to largely reproduce a new metal P40 airframe.

                      I personally applaud the efforts of the RAFM to secure and ideally acquire this airframe for their collection, and hope that such an outcome may still be progressing given the claimed movement of the container?

                      As to the constant derision of the aircraft recovery ahead of the "recovery" of the pilots remains, it seems clear the location of the aircraft become known and visited by souvenir hunters while the location of the pilots remains is still yet to be determined, and Mark12 suggests the recovery team did a search of the crash site for the pilots remains at the time of the aircraft recovery.

                      The issue seems to be that the recovery was undertaken on behalf of the RAFM, and therefore the Military / UK Government should have taken more efforts to find and recover the pilot?

                      However the recovery was by a contractor, in a deteriorating political and military situation, and the GPS location of the crash site, and a future more stable political environment doesn't preclude a more substantial search for the remains, where as it is clear this wreck would not have survived intact very much longer.

                      The issue of the UK Government searching and recovering WW2 remains is surely larger than this one missing pilot, but that sits as a Government responsibility not a RAFM responsibility, despite the public ownership status of the museum.

                      It "could" have been recovered by private US or UK interests - who would, I assume, wear little or no obligation to scour the desert for the pilots remains?, and suffer little backlash in this forum had they done so.

                      I don't see the recovery of the aircraft or recover of the pilots remains as mutually exclusive, I assume had the remains been found in, with or near the aircraft, that they would have been recovered, and at this time no one can evidence where they are?

                      There have been dozens of aircraft wrecks recovered from PNG and Russia and elsewhere by private interests that have missing crew members associated with them, (and that apparently remain missing?) I haven't seen the same arguments made against those recoveries?, that are constantly made here in relation to this P40?


                      Interestingly, the Halifax NA337 crashed into Lake Mjosa with 5 crew members perishing in the cold water, and one of those was never recovered.

                      The airframe was recovered in the 1990s and restored over 10 years in Canada to provide a rare additional survivor of this important type. Are there really any serious suggestions the wreck should not have been recovered by the National Air Force Museum of Canada until that missing crew member had been found and returned to his family?, yet that's the argument put forward by many in relation to this P40?

                      Why wasn't that recovery strongly opposed, and the recovering museum subject to ongoing criticism?

                      The crew members of the recently recovered Do17 seem un-identified and un-accounted for at this stage, - should the airframe been left in place until they were "found"?

                      I assume the various dive inspections of the wreck confirmed they weren't still in the airframe - that's abundantly clear with this P40 as well.

                      If the remains were in the airframe or located nearby, they should have been secured and recovered with, or ahead of the aircraft recovery, but that plainly wasn't the case, and therefore the recovery of the airframe is not in my view contingent on the search and recovery of the pilots remains.

                      As to its fate, I do hope it is conserved "as is" and ideally returned to the UK and displayed in the RAFM.

                      I hope for the family that the pilots remains can be located and recovered, but at least some closure to his fate has been resolved through the discovery of his aircraft wreck.

                      I personally do wonder if he suffered some medical issue that caused him to fly off in the wrong direction and ignore the efforts of the accompanying aircraft to change his course?, and that if his body was removed from the aircraft some time after the crash by others (cut harnesses etc)- but those questions may never be answered?

                      Recovery and conservation/display of his aircraft in the RAFM would provide a very fitting memorial to his sacrifice and service to his nation.


                      The management and recovery of Commonwealth War dead sits with the CWGC > http://www.cwgc.org/about-us/history...he-future.aspx

                      The efforts made to search for, and recover war dead remains varies from country to country > http://observationdeck.kinja.com/the...rld-1571022813


                      As to the debate as to if its permissible to "debate the rumoured departure of the container" - surely its quite valid to do so, this site debates plenty of rumours and "leaks" heard through the hangar doors, and in anycase Qattara appears to have confirmed it above.



                      Finally to Moggy, Bruce, Peter and the other Mods, keep up the good work and ignore the detractors unless they are volunteering to take over the roles.

                      regards

                      Mark Pilkington
                      "Never has a Country so Big!, owed so Much!, to those who Flew!"

                      Comment

                      • Mark_pilkington
                        Rank 9999 Registered User
                        • Jun 2004
                        • 1791

                        Originally posted by David Burke View Post
                        Not quite ! Its had various instruments removed -guns - various bits of light vandalism and harness cut at some stage in the past. In no way can it be described as a 'time capsule'
                        I think its as close to one you can expect to find still sitting in the battlefield where it crashed some 60 years later, perhaps only surpassed by Paul Allen's FW190?

                        I don't think the minor items you mention cheapen its value as an intact "time capsule artefact from the RAF Desert Campaign, and in fact I don't think there is a more authentic RAF airframe artefact surviving from that campaign that betters it?

                        The few missing instruments and cut harnesses can be ignored given the busted off prop, broken fuselage, torn underside and smashed engine block, but they are all elements of this crashed time capsule reflecting and preserving its condition and eventual fate and loss of it pilot.



                        Regards

                        Mark Pilkington
                        "Never has a Country so Big!, owed so Much!, to those who Flew!"

                        Comment

                        • DaveM2
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 761

                          Originally posted by John Green View Post
                          Well written Dave M2 ! The voice of commonsense and a whole heap better than some of your recent offerings.
                          Come across as quite a smart Alec don't ya? - don't know if it is intentional or not, but assume so given your posting history
                          Last edited by DaveM2; 7th January 2016, 04:20.

                          Comment

                          • Tonk
                            Hand-swing THAT..?!?!?!?!
                            • Oct 2014
                            • 80

                            ...oh gawd, more 'time capsule' twaddle. Aren't they the things that kids bury in the school playground...? Yes, lets chuck a pile of sand in the RAFM and plonk it on top like an Airfix diorama.....? Great for the Anorak brigade.
                            Now I hate to point out the 'bleedin' obvious', but this is an aeroplane - a 'flying machine' in the old parlance. The best and most succinct memorial to the efforts of the wartime personnel is to restore it and, preferably fly it. It's not a dishwasher or a gramophone, it's an AEROPLANE, not a child's toy kit. There are enough piles of mouldering junk already cluttering-up museums, this is a basically complete, restorable a/c with an interesting story - I hope it gets onto the flightline to tell it's story and for everyone to see and appreciate. Let the Anoraks fulminate over their keyboards - and let the real aviation people rebuild it, just as it was in service - and fly it for all to see. Better a living memorial than yet another dead, dusty Dodo.

                            Comment

                            • D1566
                              Needs retiring.
                              • Apr 2006
                              • 2121

                              Originally posted by Tonk View Post
                              Now I hate to point out the 'bleedin' obvious', but this is an aeroplane - a 'flying machine' in the old parlance.
                              Is it just as obvious that it is not a 'flying machine', it was once, but now is incapable as such, and to make it so again would involve considerable replacement of what it currently is.
                              Personally I think there are enough airworthy P40s worldwide, without the need to destroy the fabric of this one.
                              Martin

                              Comment

                              • Lazy8
                                Adrian Constable
                                • Apr 2012
                                • 563

                                Bleedin' obvious:

                                - This particular aircraft suffered a heavy forced landing in unfavourable terrain. Despite appearing substantially intact, it has suffered significant damage to just about every major component. None of us is in a position to say how much of the airframe would need to be replaced to rebuild it to flying condition, but it would be a lot. Might as well have cut the dataplate out and left the remains for the tourists, souvenir hunters and ultimately the local scrappy.

                                - A restoration, on a flight line, is there for all to see, sure. From a distance, a couple of times a year - every summer weekend, if you're lucky. For a very few to see, close up, the rest of the time. In a museum it's there for all to see, up close, all year round. Which is better to tell a particular, individual story? For all our own enthusiasm, we all know that the many airshow-goers can't tell a P-40 from a C-130, and for most of the rest any one P-40 will be indestinguishable from any other.

                                - An aircraft - any artifact - in a museum, restored or otherwise, serves a different purpose. It is a focus for remembering and retelling the story in which it was involved. Often this retelling is in a general sense, with the artifact acting as a reminder of others like it as well as being there in its own right. This aircraft has a distinct worthwhile story to tell for itself. Despite public sympathy for the casualties from our recent military activities, most people are losing sight of the realities of war. The heroes do not always wander smiling out of certain death as a huge fireball evolves in slow motion behind them, but the 'Hollywood view' is probably how most people see conflict. And lets not forget either that the word 'hero' has been rather over-used of late - the vast majority of people taking part in any conflict are not 'heroes' simply for being there. They're just ordinary folk getting on with a job and occasionally wishing fervently that they were somewhere else. With this aircraft in its current state the story of an ordinary bloke in extraordinary times can be told very vividly. Arguably that needs doing.

                                - Whether or not the pilot's remains are recovered is immaterial to the wider story. It matters to his family, and it matters (or at least it should do) to society as a whole that we try to find him. The fact remains, he's not there and he's apparently no longer at the one site that looked a possibility. What next? Whilst it's uncomfortable to say it, everything has it's price, and searching potentially hundreds of square miles of desert for a trace someone who died many years ago is not at the top of the priority list.

                                - Dioramas involving Airfix kits evolved partly as a child's way of making play more real, certainly, but many of them would have been inspired by the many wonderful professionally-made dioramas, both models and full-size, that used to grace many museums. An art form which has fallen out of favour, it seems.

                                - For those that haven't noticed - and Airfix and their fellow kit manufacturers certainly have - much of the model-making fraternity are no longer children. That doesn't mean they've all become superb modellers, but the hobby is now big business and many of the kits - to say nothing of the various add-ons - are well beyond the budget of most children. It has become an art form in its own right. It's not aircraft restoration, but then neither is historical research in the archives, or interviewing veterans. Each to their own.

                                Comment

                                • farnboroughrob
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Dec 2008
                                  • 617

                                  Personally destroying this P-40 to restore to flying condition is like saying we would like to put HMS victory to sea again but we are going to replace all the wood in her, or replacing stonehenge with some GRP replicas!

                                  Comment

                                  • Beermat
                                    1 Registered Rank Loser
                                    • Oct 2009
                                    • 3643

                                    John, Tonk. The point is not one of opinion or personal flying/non flying preference. It is one of fact. If this aircraft was used to make a flying machine, the machine that people will see flying will not be this aircraft. So what is the point of destroying it? That is the bit that some of us are trying to get across
                                    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
                                    It's all good. Probably.

                                    Comment

                                    • oz rb fan
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Feb 2005
                                      • 433

                                      Originally posted by Beermat View Post
                                      John, Tonk. The point is not one of opinion or personal flying/non flying preference. It is one of fact. If this aircraft was used to make a flying machine, the machine that people will see flying will not be this aircraft. So what is the point of destroying it? That is the bit that some of us are trying to get across
                                      esactly,i have in the paest accused of being a fly them all kinda guy....but this should be preserved in the RAF museum,and it could then release the bitsa that they currently on display...and if someone so wish's that could be a flyer....to destroy an artifact like this so someone can go flying would be a travesty.......not every one should be flown.......the last KI84 in japan for instance was flown in the 70's...and rightfully is now grounded....for the same reason the KI43-1 in paul allens collection wasnt restored to flying by the alpine fighter collection as to do it to FULL flying specs would have meant throwing way most of the original airframe.

                                      Comment

                                      • John Green
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Mar 2011
                                        • 6643

                                        Originally posted by Beermat View Post
                                        John, Tonk. The point is not one of opinion or personal flying/non flying preference. It is one of fact. If this aircraft was used to make a flying machine, the machine that people will see flying will not be this aircraft. So what is the point of destroying it? That is the bit that some of us are trying to get across
                                        Not destruction; enhancing, so that hundreds of thousands of more people will see this machine and others at air displays, who would not normally go near the mostly depressing interiors of many museums.

                                        It's simply a question of added value.
                                        Last edited by John Green; 7th January 2016, 10:34.

                                        Comment

                                        • John Green
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Mar 2011
                                          • 6643

                                          Originally posted by DaveM2 View Post
                                          Come across as quite a smart Alec don't ya? - don't know if it is intentional or not, but assume so given your posting history
                                          DaveM2

                                          Thank you. You're very complimentary.

                                          Comment

                                          Unconfigured Ad Widget

                                          Collapse

                                           

                                          Working...
                                          X