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Wreckage Of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z)

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  • Hampden Project
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Apr 2008
    • 86

    114C is the wing tip nav light cover attaching collar, there should be part of the threads on the other side.
    BOOMPS A DAISY, ITS ENOUGH TO MAKE YOU WEEP.

    Comment

    • BobKat
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Nov 2012
      • 874

      Many thanks Hampden Project - much appreciated. Now that you have pointed me in the right direction I have found some photos and they show an exact match for our fragment. All we need now is a piece of the coloured lens to complete the picture!

      Comment

      • BobKat
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Nov 2012
        • 874

        I was a little hasty in dismissing the items found at location 113 as unidentifiable fragments presumably from the tail fin.

        The Lancaster Manual describes the stringers along the fuselage as angle stringers and those in the main plane as top-hat. It illustrates them both. It does not describe the stringers in the wing tip or tail plane. 114B shows that the stringers in the wing tip are shaped in the same way as fuselage formers. Tucked away in an illustration for the tail plane construction is an enlarged detail showing the attachment of stringers. The detail shows a Z-shaped cross-section. The three types illustrated are shown in the picture below.

        The pieces found at location 38, also from the tail fin, were mangled out of shape, but it is now apparent that some of these can be identified as tail fin stringers with fragments of the skin attached. Similarly, what I described as unidentifiable fragments at location 113 are in fact Z-shaped stringers from the tail fin. These are pictured below.

        In 113A, the left-hand picture of a piece of the tail fin skin with a stringer attached is taken at an oblique angle with the stringer viewed from the side. In the centre the piece is pictured viewing the skin from above, and on the right the reverse side shows the riveted attachment of the stringer to the skin as seen from the inside of the fin.

        In 113B, the oblique-angled left-hand view shows the 'Z' shape of two stringers. They both appear to have an intact 10-riveted reinforcing attachment. The centre picture viewed from the side shows the zig-zag pattern of the riveting along the length of the join. On the left-hand side of the two pieces in the right-hand picture can be seen the rivets originally attaching the skin of the fin. There are small traces of the skin under some of the rivets.

        Can anyone please confirm whether the stringers, as designed, ran the length of the tail fin or if they were joined at some point, and therefore whether these reinforcements are likely to be for strengthening purposes or whether they may have been attached to a damaged part of the stringer?

        The photo-gallery has been updated with extra pictures for locations 38 and 113.


        Photo-gallery:
        https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...t=folder%2cjpg

        Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
        https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...t=folder%2cjpg
        Attached Files
        Last edited by BobKat; 29th July 2019, 09:05.

        Comment

        • Sondler 64
          Rank 4 Registered User
          • Apr 2018
          • 77

          Hi Bobcat,
          I found the same part as you show on your page 58 at the crash site of a Stirling near Schweinfurt / Franconia. As it is the complete tube with the both connectors it may help you or proof your identification. I will check the pictures of my poor finds to send you more.
          Cheers Sondler64

          Comment

          • BobKat
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Nov 2012
            • 874

            Many thanks for posting the pictures Sondler 64. It's very helpful to be able to see the complete fitting, and it is interesting to note that it seems to have been used on both the Stirling's Bristol Hercules radial engine and the Lancaster's Merlin. There appear to be some possibly incomplete markings on one end of your piece. If these are part reference numbers and you are able to read them, it would be interesting to know what they are. It would be much appreciated if you could confirm, please.

            Comment

            • Sondler 64
              Rank 4 Registered User
              • Apr 2018
              • 77

              Hi BobKat, here are the stampings on this tube. I found on both connectors something for you.
              I must say you do a brilliant job on evaluating the ED908 and wish you successful finds and identifications furtheron. I stay with your work and hope I can help you from time to time.
              Cheers Sondler64

              Comment

              • BobKat
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Nov 2012
                • 874

                Many thanks Sondler 64. Earlier research has established that the fitting is the high-pressure valve attached to the engines electro-pneumatic ram.

                We have found one end of the fitting close to a ram with the marking 'RJ V23118 ML1' at location 74 (pictures below). We have also found both ends of the fitting from another engine next to each other at locations 86 and 108. Your end pieces bear the markings 'PE ??' and 'D&L 15'. Ours appear to have no legible markings.

                All these are presumably markings applied by the independent manufacturer of the ram and valve attachment which appear to have been fitted to both the Avro Lancasters Rolls Royce Merlin (ED908) and the Short Stirlings Bristol Hercules (EE942). Can anyone add to our knowledge about this, please?

                Photo-gallery:
                https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...t=folder%2cjpg

                Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
                https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...t=folder%2cjpg

                Attached Files

                Comment

                • BobKat
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Nov 2012
                  • 874

                  Sondler 64, I hope that Peter, our Moderator, can assist. It is only the last posts #1248/1249/1250 and now this one that are not related to ED908. Your earlier post #1244 and the replies through to #1247 were helpful because this was a part that we have also found which seems to have been used in both the Lancaster and the Stirling. If maybe these last posts from #1248 to #1251 could be moved to a new thread "Lancasters crashed in Franconia" then you can continue the dialogue with forum members on that thread. To have a thread with more than one page, you simply continue postings in the "Write Something" box and new pages will be created automatically when needed. It is probably too much trouble to suggest that all your "Lancasters crashed in Franconia" threads are merged into one, but that would result in everything being in one place.

                  Comment

                  • Peter
                    Moderator
                    • Jan 2000
                    • 12507

                    I dont think it allows us to move posts into a new thread for some reason. Sondler 64 please start a new seperate thread topic
                    Cheers,Peter
                    "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

                    Comment

                    • BobKat
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Nov 2012
                      • 874

                      Peter, thanks for arranging for Sondler 64 to start a new thread to picture the piece he had found.

                      Laurent has been busy once more, finding a large number of pieces in the area where the forward fuselage came to rest. I will not deal with these all in one post and so I am starting the ball rolling with a union or Tee-piece which bears the number 3549. This seems to be a medium pressure union 2SS 3549 which was found in both the oxygen and hydraulic systems in the nose and front centre sections.

                      I have been able to identify some of the other pieces, but I am still researching others. Further details will follow.


                      Photo-gallery:
                      https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...t=folder%2cjpg

                      Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
                      https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...t=folder%2cjpg

                      Attached Files

                      Comment

                      • BobKat
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Nov 2012
                        • 874

                        Laurent has found items in seven areas within the larger location 1 where the forward fuselage came to rest. For ease of reference I have numbered these 115A to 115G.

                        The next items are four electrical pieces which are shown in the first picture below (115G). They are all likely to come from either the bomb aimer's or the cockpit area.

                        The enlarged detail 115G(1) shows a switch commonly found on the pilot's instrument panel, the bomb aimer's control panel and elsewhere. 115G(2) looks as if it should be capable of identification: in the upper part, there is the remains of a bulb and its fitting (an indicator or warning light?) and beneath this there is a cylindrical object. It doesn't seem to be the undercarriage indicator light to the left of the pilot. Does anyone recognise this, please?

                        115G(3) shows the casing of a Micro Switch (5C/1724) and 115G(4) a Fuse Box Type A (5C/445). Pictured alongside them (with acknowledgements) are a similar Micro Switch 5C/1595 (I can't find anything about our numbered item), and an intact Fuse Box casing with the same number. Can anybody confirm where these might have been situated, please? They could be from the bomb aimer's area or possibly from the cockpit area.


                        Photo-gallery:
                        https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...t=folder%2cjpg

                        Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
                        https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...t=folder%2cjpg

                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                        • Peter
                          Moderator
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 12507

                          I think that fusebox cover is from the turret or bombaimers panel.
                          Cheers,Peter
                          "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

                          Comment

                          • BobKat
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Nov 2012
                            • 874

                            Many thanks Peter. That has proved to be very helpful. I have looked at a large number of pictures of the bomb aimer's compartment and eventually found one of the cockpit section of Lancaster DV372 at the Imperial War Museum which is shown below. This was a Mk.1 version built in 1943 at about the same time as ED908.

                            What is apparent is that the configuration of the bomb aimer's panel on the port side was modified from its original design as time passed.

                            The standard switch, item 115G(1), is present on the panel. I am not sure how to describe 115G(2), but the lozenge-shaped fitting is virtually identical to the piece on the left of the two pictured on the panel. Both our piece and the one pictured have connectors on the left-hand side.

                            In the photograph, the panel itself has two holes under the left-hand fitting which is then wired to the right-hand fitting. Our piece has the same two holes but has no second fitting. Instead it has the cylindrical item at the bottom right. We appear to have a plate which would have fitted over the panel. I have asked Laurent for more pictures of the cylindrical item so that we can see it more clearly. It is not quite the same shape as the standard panel lamp, but could it be a lamp fitting? I have included details of the electrical circuitry in the picture below.

                            The fuse box, 115G(4), seems to be an exact match for that on the panel. You were spot on, Peter: many thanks. Our piece has broken away at the hinge.

                            So, we seem to have identified three pieces from the bomb aimer's port-side panel.

                            This just leaves the Micro Switch, 115G(3). As I understand it, this is a spring-loaded push button switch. There appears to be a similar double switch on the fitting behind the loop of wire in the photograph. Can anyone provide more information about a Micro Switch used by the bomb aimer, please? It seems likely to have come from the port-side of the bomb aimer's compartment.


                            Photo-gallery:
                            https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...t=folder%2cjpg

                            Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
                            https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...t=folder%2cjpg
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by BobKat; 13th August 2019, 14:58.

                            Comment

                            • BobKat
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Nov 2012
                              • 874

                              Laurent has now provided more photographs from different angles of our mysterious piece 115G(2) which are attached below. The lozenge shaped fitting appears to be for a light bulb, but this is not the conventional cabin lamp. So, what is the purpose of the bulb? Assuming it is part of the bomb aimer's panel, the Lancaster Manual indicates that there was a test lamp in the circuit. Is this what we are looking at, or is it an indicator or warning light?

                              Laurent describes the cylindrical piece attached in the corner as appearing to be an electrical coil covered with brown insulation. It has circular metal ends, but no obvious connection to the electrical circuitry.

                              Are there any electrical experts reading this who can throw any further light on the matter, please? Or is there anyone who knows how the bomb aimer's port-side panel was configured?


                              Photo-gallery:
                              https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...t=folder%2cjpg

                              Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
                              https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...t=folder%2cjpg

                              Attached Files

                              Comment

                              • BobKat
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Nov 2012
                                • 874

                                It seems that no-one is able to help with either the Micro Switch or what is thought to be part of the bomb aimer's port-side panel with its solenoid-like attachment. A pity, but perhaps not altogether surprising given that ED908 was a unique aircraft being the only one fitted with Oboe at the time and is therefore likely to have a number of non-standard pieces of equipment.

                                I do not know exactly how the Oboe equipment was installed in the Lancaster although this may be buried somewhere in the National Archives. Nor do I know how it would have operated. Jim Foulsham, the pilot, followed the beam and John Swarbrick, his navigator, controlled the bomb release, I assume from his seat alongside the Lancaster navigator, the Oboe equipment having replaced H2S. Presumably the Oboe release mechanism would have been hard-wired into the bomb release electrical circuits with the entire bomb load being dropped simultaneously. This would have made the bomb sight and the bomb aimer's starboard-side control panel redundant, although the equipment and electrical circuitry was presumably retained as a back-up if necessary.

                                Or is it possible that someone was in the bomb aimer's compartment ready to press the bomb release button on a signal from the Oboe navigator - maybe a light on the panel? Someone, somewhere, may know. If so, I should be very grateful to hear.

                                I will post the next batch of items shortly.

                                Comment

                                • Peter
                                  Moderator
                                  • Jan 2000
                                  • 12507

                                  Hi Bob,
                                  at first I htought it was a gunsight bulb socket but not sure.. will look into this..
                                  Cheers,Peter
                                  "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

                                  Comment

                                  • BobKat
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Nov 2012
                                    • 874

                                    Peter, brilliant, you are absolutely right. I have now found some photos of the Mk.IIIA gunsight. Our piece is readily identifiable with the solenoid-like piece clearly visible in the photographs which I attach below. Some of the other items Laurent has found appear to be more pieces of the casing. This must come from the FN5 nose gun turret.

                                    Would the Micro Switch also be likely to be from the gun turret?

                                    All I need now is a photograph of the gunsight in situ. So far, I haven't been able to find anything showing it clearly. Alternatively, a diagram would be helpful. Can anyone help please?


                                    Photo-gallery:
                                    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...t=folder%2cjpg

                                    Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
                                    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...t=folder%2cjpg
                                    Attached Files

                                    Comment

                                    • Peter
                                      Moderator
                                      • Jan 2000
                                      • 12507

                                      Does this help Bob??
                                      https://www.flickr.com/photos/ajb_26...7631838665613/
                                      Cheers,Peter
                                      "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

                                      Comment

                                      • BobKat
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Nov 2012
                                        • 874

                                        Peter, that's a great picture, thank you very much. I have found some other images on The Lancaster Explored CD. The combination of the two provides exactly what I was hoping for. The next batch of items will follow shortly.

                                        Comment

                                        • BobKat
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Nov 2012
                                          • 874

                                          The next batch of new finds are numbered 115F as shown in the first photo below. There is some exploded ammunition. If anyone recognises any of the smaller pieces, I should be grateful to hear.

                                          One item is the tee-piece union already mentioned in post #1250 which was identical to one found at location 39 from further aft on the aircraft. The second picture (115F(3)) shows the frame of one of the cockpit lamps: its Air Ministry marking LAMP COCKPIT MK1A, AM REF No 5C/446 is visible. It is probably the lamp in the bomb aimer's area and not the one in the main cockpit area.

                                          The third picture (115F(1)) is the mystery one. It is distinctive in appearance and may be a fractured mounting frame for an unidentified piece of equipment, probably in the bomb aimer's compartment. It does not seem to be from the pilot's or flight engineer's instrument panels. Does anyone recognise its shape, please?


                                          Photo-gallery:
                                          https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...t=folder%2cjpg

                                          Index to parts found and annotated illustrations:
                                          https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...t=folder%2cjpg

                                          Attached Files

                                          Comment

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