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By: - 4th June 2012 at 06:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
However, there is a distinct difference between skirmish and a battle.
Yes, the LW was sending a few aircraft over in late 1939 & early 1940... mainly on recon and/or harassment missions, or on specific raids on specific targets, but they had yet to commit a dedicated force to an aerial offensive intended to cripple Britain.
It was only after the Fall of France that that aerial offensive began in earnest, and it is that escalation of effort which marks the end of the skirmishes and the beginning of the Battle!
By: - 22nd June 2012 at 18:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Perhaps he realised the utter pointlessness of the debate.
By: - 22nd June 2012 at 19:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One can play with dates in several valid ways. However for the Battle of Britain to start the Battle of France must first have ended. In fact I recall the 1969 movie actually starts with Churchill's quote to that effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France
The official Fall of France was June 25... the official commencement of the Battle of Britain was July 10 with the first attacks on shipping in the English Channel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain
The three weeks between June 25 and July 10 allowed both sides to rest and recuperate.
By: - 22nd June 2012 at 20:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I really must thank you for your replies.
i joined this forum for my interest in avaition,not to get into a (POINTLESS)
argument.I really thought i was asking valid question,apparantly not.
In this matter i do not think that Official dates really matter all i was pointing out that the first air battle started in scotland, and then continued on to the official battle of britain, but the families that lost a loved one it will be ok because they were only killed in a small (skirmish)please if you want a debate ,make it a debate and not say some thing is pointless it may mean something to someone.
and on that note i may add that 603squ (city of edinburgh)went on to be the highest scoring SQU in the battle of britain and earn one pilot the first DFC
and it all started with a skirmish.
By: - 22nd June 2012 at 20:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What then was "the battle of barking creek", neither a battle nor a skirmish but men died all the same; is 603 sqn's tally relevant to the discussion?
By: - 22nd June 2012 at 20:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
totally missed the point
By: - 22nd June 2012 at 20:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Would that be me, or you?
By: - 22nd June 2012 at 20:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Aren't several of you missing the point?
As Andy has said the dates are purely arbitrary. You could say the Battle of Britain started on the 3rd September 1940 and ended in May of 1945. The comment about losing a loved one in a small skirmish being seen differently to the death of a pilot in a larger engagement is disingenuous to say the least. It is no accident that the headstones supplied by the CWGC are uniform. It is precisely to show that one death is as significant as any other, be it that of a VC holder lost in action or an AC2 who died when he fell off his motorcycle.
Debate is just that, an exchange of ideas, and I see precious little evidence of that in this thread.
Regards,
kev35
By: - 22nd June 2012 at 21:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Quote'What then was "the battle of barking creek", neither a battle nor a skirmish but men died all the same; is 603 sqn's tally relevant to the discussion?'Quote
At the time it would probably have been called (officially) a disastrous mistake, or (unofficially) complete c*ck up. These days it would be sanitised as friendly fire! I really hate that term, people still die or get injured.
Back on topic, I think it right to say that no debate on it is pointless as any battle or skirmish will have had an impact on someone but Andy is right, it is impossible to have definitive dates. It could be argued that the whole war was a battle of Britain, our fate depended on the outcome.
Kev - I must have been typing this when you put your post up (or have been blind for a minute or two).
By: - 22nd June 2012 at 22:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Battle of Barking Creek was a pure misnomer. The expression 'Barking Creek' appears to have been used in much the same way as 'Wigan Pier'. It was a throw-away comment.
The actual combat was on the Essex/Suffolk border while the one fatal victim, Montague Hulton-Harrap crashed in Suffolk.
He is buried at North Weald.
Pilot Officer Montague Hulton-Harrap - North Weald by Whipper_snapper, on Flickr
The actual incident was a fatal accident. Such things happen, even in war-time.
By: - 22nd June 2012 at 22:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The first (air) attacks on shipping in the English Channel were long before 10 July 1940.Whilst 10 July is now the "official" start date of the Battle of Britain it is a matter of fact that it is entirely artificial.
My understanding is that July 10 saw the first sanctioned and systematic attacks on shipping. As you say shipping had been liable to attack since at least the Dunkirk evacuation.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#Channel_battles
Posts: 15
By: gordon2990 - 3rd June 2012 at 13:31
Ok lads up for discussion
did the real battle of britain really start in scotland, with the first enemy aircraft shot down in the battle of the forth 16th oct 1939(junkers 88) and on the 27th october 1939 a heinkell 111 please discuss your vews.