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Amelia Earhart, TIGHAR, Hillary Clinton, Pres Obama.....

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  • Malcolm McKay
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Aug 2004
    • 1760

    Originally posted by RPM, FF, TGT... View Post
    .....
    David Billings
    RPM, FF, TGT
    David the more I consider your hypothesis the less sceptical I am becoming - not sold you understand, but it does offer a hypothesis that cannot be dismissed immediately as fanciful. You will also have seen that I am one of those on the TIGHAR forum suggesting that New Britain deserves greater attention than TIGHAR is prepared to acknowledge and I also am not falling for the trap of confusing a P&W engine with a Wright Cyclone.

    The TIGHAR hypothesis concerning Nikumaroro still waits to be either proved or disproved and as I have continually said over at that forum, and copped abuse for it, if they don't find anything clearly from the Earhart Electra this year then they have to bite the bullet and admit there is nothing. I don't apologise if my questioning is at times a bit hard nosed and direct because that generally is the only way to cut through the verbiage to the nub. I am not really interested in ideals, inspirational silliness about the sacredness of establishing truth etc. etc. that's for amateurs - I am only interested in the data. Find the data and you find the truth.

    Comment

    • anson
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jan 2009
      • 9

      Earhart ENB search

      Principles are fine but it's a very commercial World we live in, and sometimes you have to compromise - like it or not. If you have to do a 'deal' to find the Earhart Electra then that's possibly the price the ENB search team have to pay. Age and time wait for no man! I can tell it grates with you to 'sell out' to commercial people but surely its better to get to the bottom of this with their money input than never be able to find the wreckage - and the explanation of what c/n 1055
      is - if it isn't the Earhart Electra.

      Comment

      • Mark_pilkington
        Rank 9999 Registered User
        • Jun 2004
        • 1777

        Originally posted by Stepwilk View Post
        Tighar has never, -never- shirked from saying that the one thing they need, and without which they are simply theorists (and I think they've been quite forthright about this) is a piece of metal with a serial number. DNA would also do, but even that wouldn't be as inarguable as that unmistakable number stamped into aluminum a digit at a time.

        I continue to be amazed by the unconditional loathing of Tighar--no, please don't tell my why you feel that way, I've heard it all and I really don't care--displayed by many contributors to this forum. It seems to me to be the product of jealousy and resentment over the fact that Ric Gillespie and Pat Thrasher have been able to make a career out of this and other historic-airplane hunts, which is a little like hating somebody because they've made a handsome living out of developing idiotic smartphone apps about birds.

        Yes, Tighar is definitely an adventure-travel company. But I have yet to hear a single "client" who paid considerable money to participate in a Nikumaroro expedition complain that they were screwed, they didn't get their money's worth, Tighar lied to them. They have all loved the challenge, the hunt, the companionship.

        Ric and Pat have made a business out of it. They did and you didn't. Get over it.
        Smiles, - I assume you have kept track of the court action claims of Mr Tim Mellon who paid considerable money ($1M) to participate in a Nikumaroro expedition, I think he has complained in line with all three of your nominated areas.

        I dont mind that Ric and Pat have made a business out of searching for Amelia Earhart, I do mind that they seem to cry wolf over successive shoddy "smoking guns" of "evidence" and then ignore significant holes in their claims, delete peer reviews or challenges to that evidence on their forum, and still continue to raise funds on discredited claims?

        It all just seems rather un-ethical in my view, nothing to do with Jealousy or resentment thanks.


        Regards

        Mark Pilkington
        "Never has a Country so Big!, owed so Much!, to those who Flew!"

        Comment

        • Mahone
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Aug 2009
          • 218

          I see the wild geese of Nikumaroro island are in for another chasing soon: The next expedition arrives there in June, assuming Tighar's ever-generous followers stump up the $60k they're currently short of. Get ready for lots of learned debate as to whether the baked bean tins and coke bottles they find were on board the Electra...

          Comment

          • J Boyle
            With malice towards none
            • Oct 2004
            • 9645

            Originally posted by Mahone View Post
            Get ready for lots of learned debate as to whether the baked bean tins and coke bottles they find were on board the Electra...
            I'm sure they could make a case for finding Diet Coke bottles...

            Originally posted by Mark_pilkington View Post
            I dont mind that Ric and Pat have made a business out of searching for Amelia Earhart, I do mind that they seem to cry wolf over successive shoddy "smoking guns" of "evidence" and then ignore significant holes in their claims, delete peer reviews or challenges to that evidence on their forum, and still continue to raise funds on discredited claims?
            That's my issue with them...they seem to try awfully hard to make the pieces of the puzzle fit. Anything found MUST have comer from AE. Like the infamous freckle cream jar (despite the fact there is no proof that the freckle cream company used a jar like that or the obvious issue whether AE used the stuff and carried it with her).
            Like shoddy journalists (and historians and scientists) they seem to start with the desired result and try to make case going backwards...instead of collecting facts, then making a determination.

            It's sad that many who would otherwise decry "junk science" and mentalists, psychics and other conmen seem to be more than willing to fund the group.
            If their methods are being supported by a respected university (i.e. not the Long Island School of Digging up Old Stuff and Hair Design) archaeological department...they I'll gladly change my opinion.
            Last edited by J Boyle; 29th April 2015, 20:59.
            There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

            Comment

            • Hal Beck
              Registered User
              • Mar 2016
              • 3

              The Earhart threads here have been rather quiet recently. I thought I’d make my first post to provide an update on a development over at Tighar that some here might find of interest. The powers that be over at Tighar have decided that only dues-paying Tighar members be allowed to post on their forum, and that policy has now been in effect since March 1.

              For the most part it was the non-dues paying Tighar Forum members who were willing to make posts disagreeing with some aspect or other of the Nikumaroro Hypothesis, so the result of the new policy has been, predictably, a somnolent forum. Although to an objective outside observer the new policy looks to be a failure, I think from the perspective of Tighar management, the new policy is a success. Every effort over the last few years by Tighar to promote the Nikumaroro Hypothesis on the forum has met with sharp, reasoned, criticism on the forum, mostly from non-dues paying members. All of that will largely be a thing of the past now that Tighar management is preaching only to the converted. Yes, a few apostates among the dues paying flock remain and will have to be banished, and probably every now and then a currently-loyal Tighar forum member will experience that moment of clarity when the scales fall from his or her eyes and then ugliness will ensue until that person is banished. But for the most part the forum will now be a place where no bad idea about the favored hypothesis will go unadmired. From Management's perspective that makes the forum a better tool for promoting Tighar and the Nikumaroro Hypothesis.

              Excelsior, Tighar, Excelsior!
              Last edited by Hal Beck; 12th March 2016, 01:25.

              Comment

              • Malcolm McKay
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Aug 2004
                • 1760

                Not exactly a new policy but just a change of the way dissenting opinions are treated. There are just so many holes that can be plugged before something completely disintegrates and I'm afraid the Nikumaroro hypothesis passed beyond that stage years ago.

                Comment

                • Mark_pilkington
                  Rank 9999 Registered User
                  • Jun 2004
                  • 1777

                  Originally posted by Malcolm McKay View Post
                  Not exactly a new policy but just a change of the way dissenting opinions are treated. There are just so many holes that can be plugged before something completely disintegrates and I'm afraid the Nikumaroro hypothesis passed beyond that stage years ago.
                  The difference now is that DocBob and other dissidents debate and dissect the Tighar claims over on "Aviation Mysteries Forum" out of Ric and Martys reach for both moderation, censorship or outright banning.

                  It really doesnt matter if Tighar doesnt allow open debate, AMF more than makes up for it, and apparantly many Tigger fence sitters visit to read the alternative view.

                  http://aviationmystery.com//index.php

                  Regards

                  Mark Pilkington
                  "Never has a Country so Big!, owed so Much!, to those who Flew!"

                  Comment

                  • Hal Beck
                    Registered User
                    • Mar 2016
                    • 3

                    Originally posted by Mark_pilkington View Post

                    It really doesnt matter if Tighar doesnt allow open debate, AMF more than makes up for it, and apparantly many Tigger fence sitters visit to read the alternative view.
                    What's significant is that Tighar has thrown in the towel on debating with skeptics on its own forum where it has a distinct home court advantage, so to speak. So far under the new policy the fellow whom one wag has aptly called 'The Leader' has been running a scavenger hunt for trivial information about Earhart's Electra for a self-published book that Tighar grandly claims it is producing "as a service to historians and researchers". I think the Leader has been made to realize that the hostility shown to dissenting opinions over there looked very, very, bad. The reform chosen was not to treat dissenters with respect, rather it was to greatly reduce the possibility that any dissenting opinions would ever even appear over there.
                    Last edited by Hal Beck; 12th March 2016, 15:58.

                    Comment

                    • J Boyle
                      With malice towards none
                      • Oct 2004
                      • 9645

                      Originally posted by Hal Beck View Post
                      The reform chosen was not to treat dissenters with respect, rather it was to greatly reduce the possibility that any dissenting opinions would ever even appear over there.
                      Exactly.
                      Lately the group's policies certainly seem more like a cult ( or North Korea ) than a serious research group objectively looking at an issue.
                      Dissenting opinions are silenced.
                      There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

                      Comment

                      • RPM, FF, TGT...
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Apr 2009
                        • 140

                        The Cult of Tighar and a Group Objective

                        J Boyle is correct and the North Korean analogy fits, people disappear without trace after posting views contrary to the Tighar Doctrine. Mark P (in the post above) refers to the banning of dissidents which follows the groove of the DPRNK..... The recent denial of service to non-members posting (pay to post) has robbed TIGHAR of the independent and intellectual thought processes which did produce ideas which TIGHAR ran with....

                        I say that as a reader of TIGHAR since 1994.

                        So too, and because of this, the TIGHAR membership so frequently claimed to be worldwide is obviously not so large as "the Management of Two" would like. A claim recently made that TIGHAR was the "biggest" aviation forum site were absolutely astounding compared to this one which TiGHAR obviously does not know exists..... TIGHAR only racks up with on average, 30 people visiting daily on "that" site. Even that number of 30 odd, mysteriously is double what it used to be a few weeks ago. Members seem to come and go at TIGHAR like ships in the night.

                        The Group Objective remains as NIKU.... NIKU 9 being scheduled for the 80th anniversary year. "The Management" painted itself into a corner with the Nikumaroro Hypothesis and there is nowhere to go now except down into the deep briny offshore with manned submersibles for which TiGHAR looks to be in need of US$3-5 Million. That (if possible to be raised) will mean that if it is raised and spent, some $12 million will have gone down the lagoon ....

                        In re-reading this entire thread, I have remembered a question J Boyle asked and that was: "Where did the Sextant Box possibly come from ?". At the time I myself answered that it could have come from an Officer on the S.S. Norwich City grabbing this piece of equipment while dashing for a lifeboat. There is a possible other source and that is from a Surveyor on the USN Vessel "Bushnell" which visited Gardner Island (now Nikumaroro) when the survey was done prior to the LORAN station being set up.... not to forget about the Bevington and New Zealand surveys either.... Recently in one of my trips to New Britain, I borrowed a bicycle (the only one in the village) and went to the coast to be in line of sight to the new phone tower across the bay. I hid the bike in the coastal bush off the track and tried the phone on the beach. When I went back for the bike, I could not find it. It took a complete walk through of a half hour before I found it. If a Bushnell Surveyor left the box and moved to a more advantageous position for a sextant sighting the same thing might well have happened.

                        RPM
                        http://earhartsearchpng.wordpress.com
                        Last edited by RPM, FF, TGT...; 13th March 2016, 07:11.

                        Comment

                        • Hal Beck
                          Registered User
                          • Mar 2016
                          • 3

                          Originally posted by RPM, FF, TGT... View Post
                          That is an excellent presentation of the 'ENB hypothesis', if I may use that term. Very well written and illustrated and everything all in one place; till now I'd only seen various aspects of it discussed piecemeal. One thing I don't see is a link to something like PayPal, which would give people interested in the project a way to support it. But it looks like the site is still under construction, so maybe that will come.

                          Anyway, hat's off, very well done!

                          Comment

                          • RPM, FF, TGT...
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Apr 2009
                            • 140

                            Originally posted by Hal Beck View Post
                            Anyway, hat's off, very well done!
                            Thanks for the compliment. It took a lot of work. I had to go backto "my youf" as an Apprentice at RAF Halton in the late 50's, dig out my old textbooks and classroom books and together with the ones from my F/E training in the mid 60's...... do it all again....

                            You are correct, the site is still under construction with Parts 7 and 8 due to appear shortly. I also have video of the Vets at interview which I will put up on YouTube and link them in to the site.

                            Thanks again....

                            RPM
                            http://earhartsearchpng.wordpress.com

                            Comment

                            • anson
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 9

                              Well Ex RAF Halton man Mr Billings , your website is very, very interesting.I hope you get a lot of 'reads'. The Wasp fuel consumption figures are obviously key and your spreadsheet is a great way to demonstrate what might have happened.
                              Have your 'friends' at TIGHAR responded yet!!!!!!?

                              Comment

                              • ZRX61
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • May 2005
                                • 4609

                                This is how religions get started....
                                If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

                                Comment

                                • detective
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Sep 2013
                                  • 138

                                  ....could you please elaborate ZRX61 ? .. to whom are we ascribing the "religion" to...TIGHAR ?, or the seemingly more methodical RPM, FF, TGT...
                                  Last edited by detective; 28th March 2016, 07:27.

                                  Comment

                                  • TwinOtter23
                                    NAM volunteer-Plugmeister
                                    • Jan 2006
                                    • 7681

                                    Hot news from NAM new Amelia Earhart display with some fresh insight being provided
                                    Attached Files
                                    Find out what's happening at newarkairmuseum.org
                                    Please help move Chinook ZA717 to Newark Air Museum

                                    Comment

                                    • RPM, FF, TGT...
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Apr 2009
                                      • 140

                                      Earhart Search PNG

                                      For all those interested in the ongoing project in Papua New Guinea to re-locate an all-metal unpainted, twin-engine aircraft without military insignia seen by an Australian Army Patrol in April 1945, the latest item in the project is Part 9 of the story which has now been posted on:

                                      http://earhartsearchpng.wordpress.com

                                      We will shortly be moving to a new domain (a www.) to increase readership and I will notify when this has been done.

                                      For Anson:

                                      No... strangely, there has been no mention of our latest effort at publicity. Now this is not a normal occurrence for one so sharp at the flintlock practice that the "Executive Director" of that organisation so often normally does carry out. I recall I did receive a Fax from him back in 1996 or 1997 where he enquired under the auspices of his high office as to the origin of our evidence, that he had heard by a break in a confidence; but when I replied in a "cannot confirm or deny" mode, I heard no more from that worthy enterprise. Years later after 'USA Today' ran the story in 2004, his office had to admit to the faithful Forum brethren there, that he had known about it but had not informed them. Since then there were a few remarks, some of them quite sneering in fact, from members there.... but nothing for the last few years I think.

                                      Twin Otter 23:

                                      Keep that Argosy C.Mk.1 cockpit in good nick at the NAM..... I may come back and fire it up again one day... I enjoyed the last time about fifteen years ago... I might have difficulty remembering some of the checks but I will never ever forget to remove the FPS Lever and check for 5 Lights after landing......

                                      Regards,

                                      RPM...

                                      Comment

                                      • Meddle
                                        Rank Bajin.
                                        • Sep 2014
                                        • 1626

                                        I'm sure I read of the 'discovery' on East New Britain Island before. Didn't the infantry men initially think they had come across a sniper position because they mistook a propeller blade for a gun barrel?

                                        Comment

                                        • RPM, FF, TGT...
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Apr 2009
                                          • 140

                                          Response to Meddle:

                                          The point man, Corporal Don Angwin, saw a 3 to 4 inch round tube looking at him and thought initially that it was a gun barrel. This is explained in Part 3 "Wreckage is found" and in Part 6 "Analysis" on the website.

                                          RPM...

                                          Comment

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