By: WebPilot
- 26th April 2011 at 19:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In what way was Peter's post "nasty"? He even had the good grace to say that you are still welcome at Gatwick despite the drivel you have posted in this thread!
I think that post should be removed by the mods and the thread locked. It's quite clearly at odds with Forum rules.
By: FoxVC10
- 26th April 2011 at 20:22Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Chox can you give me the money for the correct paint and the equipment to use on all the aircraft that are painted in-correctly. I will gladly go around and paint the said problem aircraft.
I will also require a regular sum to maintain the paint in the required pristine condition, as I believe that the DayGlo paint was done away with (in the US at least) because it faded rather rapidly.
I look forward to seeing the Lancaster in pink, I think it would look rather nice.
By: AMB
- 26th April 2011 at 20:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Paint stripped Sea Prince.
Found six or seven layers of paint and primer.
Some of layers were DayGlo, lowest layer, that nearest the metal was red.
For AMBs benefit; not orange, not DayGlo, not orangelike but red, as in red. Please don't make me repeat it again, you've already worn that one out.
Thanks for clarifying that Peter. So if it was the colour nearest the metal, that would make it the primer, or undercoat and not any final top coat!
I rest my (and Tim's case)!
By: WebPilot
- 26th April 2011 at 21:29Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And the fact is as Adrian confirmed *, that sea princes were finished with dayglo that varied in shade from orange to red as we said all along. Not just orange as you maintained.
* "I have slides of Sea Princes with red and orange Dayglo"
By: David Burke
- 26th April 2011 at 21:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I dont really think the two examples really fit in with todays world. Not many museums that I can think of just aim to 'amuse' the public -those days are largely gone . I would suggest inform- educate and maybe entertain would be within the aims of most museums. Within this is the desire to keep exhibits in reasonable condition -often within tight budgets. So where there might be compromises - it could take the form of hardier paints to protect for longer which might not be truelly representive but offer a longer life for the machine.
Whilst this might offend enthusiasts sentiments - any museum that relys on keeping them happy isnt going to survive as they are just a tiny fraction of museum visitors.
By: WebPilot
- 26th April 2011 at 22:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Whilst this might offend enthusiasts sentiments - any museum that relys on keeping them happy isnt going to survive as they are just a tiny fraction of museum visitors.
Absolutely. If people going to carp about the Wrong paint, then using modern fabric on flying vintage aircraft, or other non-original fit is equally heinous, surely. The fact is that compromises have to be made to make these artifacts useable or long lived and provided they are honest changes, then I and 99.9999% of the rest of the population - enthusiast or not - have no problem with that.
By: WebPilot
- 26th April 2011 at 23:26Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, bad chox. You were getting there. Just go and look at the one in cobham hall and marvel in its red hued goodness. It has a hint of orange but like Adrian said dayglo comes in many shades. Just like other paints.
New
Posts: 1,263
By: Chox
- 26th April 2011 at 23:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ahh, so it hasn't been repainted then, as I assumed. That'll be fluorescent orange then, same as it always was. Blimey this is hard work.
By: WebPilot
- 26th April 2011 at 23:43Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Could it be you are colour blind I wonder. Red/orange can be hard for those of limited sensitivity to shades. Adrian obviously doesn't suffer from this as he knows that dayglo varies from pale tangerine to blood orange. Or as we also know it, red. Fact I'm afraid. Its only hard because you are trying to fight facts and that's always an uphill battle along with your charming determination to have thelast word.
New
Posts: 1,263
By: Chox
- 26th April 2011 at 23:54Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's perfectly simple. The FAAM example is painted in the same standard fluorescent orange we've been talking about all along. You can argue forever but you're wasting your time. I don't think you even know what you're arguing about now, you've been at it for so long! The thread was about Sea Prince colours when they were in service. They were orange. Adrian correctly states that a few (a very few) may (and only may) have been painted in a more red-orange, but this was probably simply poor photo reproduction, and applied only to a handful of aircraft which were photographed many decades ago. The point was (and still is I assume) that the Gatwick pair were painted orange, not red (and not fluorescent red either). Nor were they ever painted red. Both Adrian and I have tried to state this as clearly as we can.
So, by all means carry-on arguing but as even you have said, you can't alter facts...
Anyway, we could solve things neatly by looking at things differently. If you're so convinced that what Adrian and I have said is wrong, and Peter's Princes really were painted red at some stage whilst in FAA service, how about presenting us with so much as one colour photograph to illustrate these mythical beasts? Just one would be fine...
If you can not (and you are welcome to take as many weeks or months as you like) can we then assume that what we have been saying is actually true? Surely, in the absence of even a shred of evidence, we must have actually been right? No, surely not, we're just armchair experts. Mind you, if we are, I'm not sure what that makes everyone else...
By: WebPilot
- 27th April 2011 at 00:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
At last everybody! - a grudging admission from chox that not all dayglo oranges are exactly the same and some were more red in shade, just as Adrian and everyone has been trying to tell him. It might be *called* orange but it can be a deep red hued orange. You've already dismissed photographic evidence of this as those mythical " lighting conditions" despite the same shade showing in daylight and under hangar lights. Adrian has already said that he has many slides showing orange - orange and red-orange. Its not an isolated example, lighting, film or anything else. I can't make that any plainer. However since you insist here we have a 1972 shot. Even if the reproduction is not 100% true , one only has to look at the lack of tonal variation between the spinners and roundels and the dayglo paint to realise this is more red than orange.
By: Lima1
- 27th April 2011 at 01:58Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Even if the reproduction is not 100% true , one only has to look at the lack of tonal variation between the spinners and roundels and the dayglo paint to realise this is more red than orange.
Lovely photo, We've just had a poll of people passing through the office (made nights a bit more interesting):
5 people say Orange
3 people say red orange
1 person said red
Just goes to show how differently people perceive colours, not very helpful really - but it passed a bit of time.
By: WebPilot
- 27th April 2011 at 07:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Red / orange perception can be problematic. This may help. The clear difference between the orange and roundel red in the top photo shows how different the sea prince tone is.
By: WebPilot
- 27th April 2011 at 09:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This one is fascinating. Coming through from beneath the degraded dayglo is the old trainer yellow fusalage band and glimpses of them can also be seen on the wings.
By: NickB
- 27th April 2011 at 09:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
At last everybody! - a grudging admission from chox that not all dayglo oranges are exactly the same and some were more red in shade, just as Adrian and everyone has been trying to tell him. It might be *called* orange but it can be a deep red hued orange. You've already dismissed photographic evidence of this as those mythical " lighting conditions" despite the same shade showing in daylight and under hangar lights. Adrian has already said that he has many slides showing orange - orange and red-orange. Its not an isolated example, lighting, film or anything else. I can't make that any plainer. However since you insist here we have a 1972 shot. Even if the reproduction is not 100% true , one only has to look at the lack of tonal variation between the spinners and roundels and the dayglo paint to realise this is more red than orange.
I have to say that to my mind in that picture the Sea Prince is sporting a very fresh coat of what I grew up knowing as 'dayglo orange'. If you look at the contrast between that colour and the red in the centre of the roundell on the fuselage, there is quite a difference.
Would love to see dayglo red/orange (whatever!!) re-introduced - it does look stunning I have to say.
Let's hope Gannet T5 XT752 returns to the air over the UK some time in the future as that has generous amounts of said hue applied! :-)
Posts: 1,707
By: WebPilot - 26th April 2011 at 19:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In what way was Peter's post "nasty"? He even had the good grace to say that you are still welcome at Gatwick despite the drivel you have posted in this thread!
I think that post should be removed by the mods and the thread locked. It's quite clearly at odds with Forum rules.
Posts: 271
By: FoxVC10 - 26th April 2011 at 20:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Chox can you give me the money for the correct paint and the equipment to use on all the aircraft that are painted in-correctly. I will gladly go around and paint the said problem aircraft.
I will also require a regular sum to maintain the paint in the required pristine condition, as I believe that the DayGlo paint was done away with (in the US at least) because it faded rather rapidly.
I look forward to seeing the Lancaster in pink, I think it would look rather nice.
Posts: 562
By: AMB - 26th April 2011 at 20:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks for clarifying that Peter. So if it was the colour nearest the metal, that would make it the primer, or undercoat and not any final top coat!
I rest my (and Tim's case)!
Posts: 1,665
By: richw_82 - 26th April 2011 at 20:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Peter seems to know the difference between primer and paint, and isn't the etch primer that usually goes onto aircraft yellow(ish)?
Posts: 1,707
By: WebPilot - 26th April 2011 at 21:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And the fact is as Adrian confirmed *, that sea princes were finished with dayglo that varied in shade from orange to red as we said all along. Not just orange as you maintained.
* "I have slides of Sea Princes with red and orange Dayglo"
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 26th April 2011 at 21:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I dont really think the two examples really fit in with todays world. Not many museums that I can think of just aim to 'amuse' the public -those days are largely gone . I would suggest inform- educate and maybe entertain would be within the aims of most museums. Within this is the desire to keep exhibits in reasonable condition -often within tight budgets. So where there might be compromises - it could take the form of hardier paints to protect for longer which might not be truelly representive but offer a longer life for the machine.
Whilst this might offend enthusiasts sentiments - any museum that relys on keeping them happy isnt going to survive as they are just a tiny fraction of museum visitors.
Posts: 1,707
By: WebPilot - 26th April 2011 at 22:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Absolutely. If people going to carp about the Wrong paint, then using modern fabric on flying vintage aircraft, or other non-original fit is equally heinous, surely. The fact is that compromises have to be made to make these artifacts useable or long lived and provided they are honest changes, then I and 99.9999% of the rest of the population - enthusiast or not - have no problem with that.
Posts: 1,665
By: richw_82 - 26th April 2011 at 23:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, it's red.
Posts: 1,263
By: Chox - 26th April 2011 at 23:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not unless they've repainted it old boy.
Posts: 1,665
By: richw_82 - 26th April 2011 at 23:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If its the Gatwick one, correct. Six or seven times.
But underneath it's still red.
Did you check them all? No? Thought not.
Having given this some thought, I'm going to leave you to yourself. I can't be bothered with arguing with somebody who clearly has a learning issue.
Posts: 1,707
By: WebPilot - 26th April 2011 at 23:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, bad chox. You were getting there. Just go and look at the one in cobham hall and marvel in its red hued goodness. It has a hint of orange but like Adrian said dayglo comes in many shades. Just like other paints.
Posts: 1,263
By: Chox - 26th April 2011 at 23:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ahh, so it hasn't been repainted then, as I assumed. That'll be fluorescent orange then, same as it always was. Blimey this is hard work.
Posts: 1,707
By: WebPilot - 26th April 2011 at 23:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Could it be you are colour blind I wonder. Red/orange can be hard for those of limited sensitivity to shades. Adrian obviously doesn't suffer from this as he knows that dayglo varies from pale tangerine to blood orange. Or as we also know it, red. Fact I'm afraid. Its only hard because you are trying to fight facts and that's always an uphill battle along with your charming determination to have thelast word.
Posts: 1,263
By: Chox - 26th April 2011 at 23:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's perfectly simple. The FAAM example is painted in the same standard fluorescent orange we've been talking about all along. You can argue forever but you're wasting your time. I don't think you even know what you're arguing about now, you've been at it for so long! The thread was about Sea Prince colours when they were in service. They were orange. Adrian correctly states that a few (a very few) may (and only may) have been painted in a more red-orange, but this was probably simply poor photo reproduction, and applied only to a handful of aircraft which were photographed many decades ago. The point was (and still is I assume) that the Gatwick pair were painted orange, not red (and not fluorescent red either). Nor were they ever painted red. Both Adrian and I have tried to state this as clearly as we can.
So, by all means carry-on arguing but as even you have said, you can't alter facts...
Anyway, we could solve things neatly by looking at things differently. If you're so convinced that what Adrian and I have said is wrong, and Peter's Princes really were painted red at some stage whilst in FAA service, how about presenting us with so much as one colour photograph to illustrate these mythical beasts? Just one would be fine...
If you can not (and you are welcome to take as many weeks or months as you like) can we then assume that what we have been saying is actually true? Surely, in the absence of even a shred of evidence, we must have actually been right? No, surely not, we're just armchair experts. Mind you, if we are, I'm not sure what that makes everyone else...
Posts: 1,707
By: WebPilot - 27th April 2011 at 00:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
At last everybody! - a grudging admission from chox that not all dayglo oranges are exactly the same and some were more red in shade, just as Adrian and everyone has been trying to tell him. It might be *called* orange but it can be a deep red hued orange. You've already dismissed photographic evidence of this as those mythical " lighting conditions" despite the same shade showing in daylight and under hangar lights. Adrian has already said that he has many slides showing orange - orange and red-orange. Its not an isolated example, lighting, film or anything else. I can't make that any plainer. However since you insist here we have a 1972 shot. Even if the reproduction is not 100% true , one only has to look at the lack of tonal variation between the spinners and roundels and the dayglo paint to realise this is more red than orange.
http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1215277F.jpg
Posts: 82
By: Lima1 - 27th April 2011 at 01:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lovely photo, We've just had a poll of people passing through the office (made nights a bit more interesting):
5 people say Orange
3 people say red orange
1 person said red
Just goes to show how differently people perceive colours, not very helpful really - but it passed a bit of time.
Posts: 1,707
By: WebPilot - 27th April 2011 at 07:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Red / orange perception can be problematic. This may help. The clear difference between the orange and roundel red in the top photo shows how different the sea prince tone is.
http://www.linton-gin.com/aircraft.html
Posts: 1,707
By: WebPilot - 27th April 2011 at 09:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This one is fascinating. Coming through from beneath the degraded dayglo is the old trainer yellow fusalage band and glimpses of them can also be seen on the wings.
http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1104208/
Posts: 630
By: NickB - 27th April 2011 at 09:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lovely picture that.
I have to say that to my mind in that picture the Sea Prince is sporting a very fresh coat of what I grew up knowing as 'dayglo orange'. If you look at the contrast between that colour and the red in the centre of the roundell on the fuselage, there is quite a difference.
Would love to see dayglo red/orange (whatever!!) re-introduced - it does look stunning I have to say.
Let's hope Gannet T5 XT752 returns to the air over the UK some time in the future as that has generous amounts of said hue applied! :-)
Posts: 10,647
By: pagen01 - 27th April 2011 at 09:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just thought Nick, your uncles must have some great shots of S Princes' etc at Culdrose?