By: richw_82
- 21st November 2010 at 00:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
20th Nov... somewhere in the Midlands..
Well, things never go to plan do they? 963 didn't run today. We started the day really hoping to, but she wouldn't co-operate. The tanks have oil in, the pumps work but for some reason we just can't persuade the oil up into the cams, despite the pressure showing off the gauge.
We pulled the engines through a couple of turns just to see if it was an airlock, but still nothing. We expected teething troubles though, as while it been done on a Griffon in the past, its never been done on the Shackleton. The engineers are deep in the books at the moment, and I'm sure they'll solve it before too long. Its got to be something fairly simple as the pump is fitted in where we normally pre-oil from manually.
In other news -
We had a really good sized team today (12 people!), and could task a couple of people to each engine, meaning we could get the engines uncowled and the cam covers off for testing inside 3/4 of an hour.
We managed to strip clean and refit all the spinner latches, meaning they weren't going anywhere. They now lock securely with a satisfying "click".
There were several bits going on inside, seats getting cleaned, and we even had a few visitors, which made what was a very cold and grey day just that bit more pleasant.
There's always next week... maybe 963 won't be in a mood.
By: richw_82
- 21st November 2010 at 12:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Cheers Bruce.
The pumps were priming as we cracked the outlet line, and they also have a bleed screw. It was cold (about 3 - 4 deg), but the new oil should cope with the temperature.
The thoughts getting bounced around as we left were that the oil has come up against a non return somewhere, or the high pressure provided by the pump is opening a relief valve somewhere and dumping oil back into the tank.
I don't know the ins and outs of the Griffon that well, so I'll have to wait to see what they come up with.
By: Bruce
- 21st November 2010 at 13:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In that case, is your priming line going straight to the engine? I seem to recall a priming point on the front of the heads, so bypass all the oil galleries if you can.
You could also try putting a heater in the oil tank, and get it nice and liquid before you run the pump.
By: richw_82
- 27th November 2010 at 18:17Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
27 Nov.
A cold cold day! And the snow would pick today; the first meeting of the restarted "Friends of WR963". Our friends at Airbase kindly let us use the Canberra cafe, which gave us a nice warm place in which to enjoy coffee, food and tall stories. There is a wealth of good things to come from this little group and the enthusiasm is pleasing. We also had access to the hangar, and one of the Classic Flight GST was on hand as a guide. Many thanks to all for helping make it a great day!
WR963 wasn't too happy with the overnight low temperatures! Our first job was to get in so our visitors could have a tour. The lock barrel on the crew door was well and truly frozen, so the 'alternative' method of entry was used. This involved a less than amusing Bambi impression done by yours truly on the starboard wing. Happily, with a little persuasion from inside, the door behaved and the tours could be done.
After lunch, most people had left to get home before any more snow arrived, so we took the opportunity to open up no4 engine cowling and have another crack at the pre-oilers. We've bled and rebled the system, the oil is quite viscous even in low temperatures, we've tried pulling the prop through with the pre-oiling pump going but still nothing seems to make its way up to the cams.
That's where I have to chime in with bad news..
There are some things you just don't want to have to write. More so when you realise how hard people have worked to try and make something good happen.
Sadly, I have to tell you all WR963 will NOT be running at the Classic Flight night runs on 11 Dec. It didn't really take a genius to figure out that our target date of "just before Christmas" for running was decided on for a reason. We gave it our best shot, and ran out of time.
The pre-oiling system still has issues that need working through. As such, we're not willing to run an engine knowing that we have less than adequate lubrication for those vital first few minutes. So to all those that were hoping, and to those that knew what we were up to and were keeping silent for us... I am truly sorry.
By: Jayce
- 1st December 2010 at 03:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Nevermind Chris, she's looking lovely regardless. I saw the rather sad state of her sister at Long Marston a few years ago and I'm just relieved to see one being looked after so well.
By: richw_82
- 1st December 2010 at 09:46Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We had a little discussion last Saturday about what we could do to get her running, and theres no real way to do it. Even if we pull the rocker boxes off and douse everything with oil, the bearings still are starved.
We're priming through the place where the Griffon AP says we should be. Somethings not right, or there's a blockage in there that caused the horrendous wear on the cams to start with. We will get to the bottom of it.
We have plenty of work to do, and lots of things in the calendar for next year, which you guys will hear about. One of our new guys lives on the outskirts of the airfield, so he's keeping a winter weather eye on her when us that are further out can't.
We are keeping well and truly at it! I believe the motto is "Constant Endeavour".
Regards,
Rich
ps. First time Ben has ever been described as eloquent. I didn't laugh.
By: MerlinPete
- 1st December 2010 at 21:45Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Guys
I`m sure you will have done this already, but just in case. . . .
Even if these priming pumps are gravity-fed, I have set them up and run them for ages with no pressure build up on first installation. What usually works is to slacken the outlet pipe or remove it altogether which helps the pump to prime, alternatively fill the pump and preferably the feed pipe with oil first.
By: richw_82
- 2nd December 2010 at 09:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Pete,
Your experiences sounds similar to ours. We're going to up the bore of the outlet pipe, as we believe this will help with flow and reduce any restriction we had there. We did get as far as removing the pipe and pumping into a container to check and to prime the pump but we believe the low temperatures aren't helping either, by thickening the new oil and that within the engines.
There's not going to be any work done this Saturday by the look of the weather, but we'll be there the following week and see how much further we can get.
By: richw_82
- 13th December 2010 at 22:54Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mon 13th Dec
I managed to get a bit of time off and went down to work Shackleton today. We were due to be getting a visit from a guy who rebuilds props with a view to doing ours but he had to cancel at the last minute.
This meant I was in a position where I had tools, time, and not a lot to occupy me... so with the other brave members of our group who had turned up we decided to take another look at the pre-oiling system. We weren't overly happy that we couldn't join in on the night runs, and we were determined to find the cause of the problem that prevented us.
After trying various combinations and setups, and by checking the oil flow at each stage we found a couple of restrictions that needed to be overcome, but the good news is this -
Before I left Coventry today, WR963's no.4 Griffon engine was successfully being pre-oiled by use of the onboard pump only - with all the cam lobes and fingers getting a good supply on both banks. There's a little more minor tweaking to be done; but its working!!
Posts: 2
By: lerch21 - 15th November 2010 at 12:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi all,
just a few quick picture updates from coventry and the progress the guys are making :)
hopefully more to follow next week :)
Lerch
Posts: 1,665
By: richw_82 - 21st November 2010 at 00:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
20th Nov... somewhere in the Midlands..
Well, things never go to plan do they? 963 didn't run today. We started the day really hoping to, but she wouldn't co-operate. The tanks have oil in, the pumps work but for some reason we just can't persuade the oil up into the cams, despite the pressure showing off the gauge.
We pulled the engines through a couple of turns just to see if it was an airlock, but still nothing. We expected teething troubles though, as while it been done on a Griffon in the past, its never been done on the Shackleton. The engineers are deep in the books at the moment, and I'm sure they'll solve it before too long. Its got to be something fairly simple as the pump is fitted in where we normally pre-oil from manually.
In other news -
We had a really good sized team today (12 people!), and could task a couple of people to each engine, meaning we could get the engines uncowled and the cam covers off for testing inside 3/4 of an hour.
We managed to strip clean and refit all the spinner latches, meaning they weren't going anywhere. They now lock securely with a satisfying "click".
There were several bits going on inside, seats getting cleaned, and we even had a few visitors, which made what was a very cold and grey day just that bit more pleasant.
There's always next week... maybe 963 won't be in a mood.
Regards
Ric
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 21st November 2010 at 07:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I suspect the oil is rather cold. Also make sure the pumps are well primed before connecting the engine side up.
Bruce
Posts: 1,665
By: richw_82 - 21st November 2010 at 12:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Cheers Bruce.
The pumps were priming as we cracked the outlet line, and they also have a bleed screw. It was cold (about 3 - 4 deg), but the new oil should cope with the temperature.
The thoughts getting bounced around as we left were that the oil has come up against a non return somewhere, or the high pressure provided by the pump is opening a relief valve somewhere and dumping oil back into the tank.
I don't know the ins and outs of the Griffon that well, so I'll have to wait to see what they come up with.
Regards,
Ric
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 21st November 2010 at 13:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In that case, is your priming line going straight to the engine? I seem to recall a priming point on the front of the heads, so bypass all the oil galleries if you can.
You could also try putting a heater in the oil tank, and get it nice and liquid before you run the pump.
Bruce
Posts: 1,665
By: richw_82 - 21st November 2010 at 13:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Regarding the priming line - I think so. I'll have to ask. The heater sounds an idea, particularly given winter temperatures.
Rich
Posts: 1,665
By: richw_82 - 27th November 2010 at 18:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
27 Nov.
A cold cold day! And the snow would pick today; the first meeting of the restarted "Friends of WR963". Our friends at Airbase kindly let us use the Canberra cafe, which gave us a nice warm place in which to enjoy coffee, food and tall stories. There is a wealth of good things to come from this little group and the enthusiasm is pleasing. We also had access to the hangar, and one of the Classic Flight GST was on hand as a guide. Many thanks to all for helping make it a great day!
WR963 wasn't too happy with the overnight low temperatures! Our first job was to get in so our visitors could have a tour. The lock barrel on the crew door was well and truly frozen, so the 'alternative' method of entry was used. This involved a less than amusing Bambi impression done by yours truly on the starboard wing. Happily, with a little persuasion from inside, the door behaved and the tours could be done.
After lunch, most people had left to get home before any more snow arrived, so we took the opportunity to open up no4 engine cowling and have another crack at the pre-oilers. We've bled and rebled the system, the oil is quite viscous even in low temperatures, we've tried pulling the prop through with the pre-oiling pump going but still nothing seems to make its way up to the cams.
That's where I have to chime in with bad news..
There are some things you just don't want to have to write. More so when you realise how hard people have worked to try and make something good happen.
Sadly, I have to tell you all WR963 will NOT be running at the Classic Flight night runs on 11 Dec. It didn't really take a genius to figure out that our target date of "just before Christmas" for running was decided on for a reason. We gave it our best shot, and ran out of time.
The pre-oiling system still has issues that need working through. As such, we're not willing to run an engine knowing that we have less than adequate lubrication for those vital first few minutes. So to all those that were hoping, and to those that knew what we were up to and were keeping silent for us... I am truly sorry.
Regards,
Rich
Posts: 485
By: Jayce - 1st December 2010 at 03:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Nevermind Chris, she's looking lovely regardless. I saw the rather sad state of her sister at Long Marston a few years ago and I'm just relieved to see one being looked after so well.
Keep up the good work!
Posts: 1,665
By: richw_82 - 1st December 2010 at 09:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Think you might have confused me with someone, as I'm Rich, but thanks anyway.
The Long Marston Shackleton is still there and in no better state than she was a few years back.
Regards,
Rich
Posts: 10,647
By: pagen01 - 1st December 2010 at 09:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Cracking work there Rich, better to take your time and get things right than just rush ahead to achieve running by a certain date.
I can only really echo what forumite Benjamin has put before us so beautifully and eloquently here, erm ...keep at it slag!
Posts: 1,665
By: richw_82 - 1st December 2010 at 09:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We had a little discussion last Saturday about what we could do to get her running, and theres no real way to do it. Even if we pull the rocker boxes off and douse everything with oil, the bearings still are starved.
We're priming through the place where the Griffon AP says we should be. Somethings not right, or there's a blockage in there that caused the horrendous wear on the cams to start with. We will get to the bottom of it.
We have plenty of work to do, and lots of things in the calendar for next year, which you guys will hear about. One of our new guys lives on the outskirts of the airfield, so he's keeping a winter weather eye on her when us that are further out can't.
We are keeping well and truly at it! I believe the motto is "Constant Endeavour".
Regards,
Rich
ps. First time Ben has ever been described as eloquent. I didn't laugh.
Much...
Posts: 5,088
By: Blue_2 - 1st December 2010 at 16:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I suspect Pagen had been at the irony pills! ;)
Posts: 485
By: Jayce - 1st December 2010 at 17:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ooops! Sorry Rich, I sort of did! Chalk it up to posting at 3am...
...and the Chez Vegas location tag. :p
Posts: 1,665
By: richw_82 - 1st December 2010 at 18:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No worries.
Chez Vegas? I take it you know of our town then!
Wherever you are you'll have to come look at 963 sometime if you haven't already.
Posts: 3,214
By: Nashio966 - 1st December 2010 at 18:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Posts: 1,665
By: richw_82 - 1st December 2010 at 18:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I love it how you lot keep cracking the whip. If it wasn't for us in the North nothing would ever get done.
Okay... back to work I go! :rolleyes:
Posts: 1,270
By: MerlinPete - 1st December 2010 at 21:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Guys
I`m sure you will have done this already, but just in case. . . .
Even if these priming pumps are gravity-fed, I have set them up and run them for ages with no pressure build up on first installation. What usually works is to slacken the outlet pipe or remove it altogether which helps the pump to prime, alternatively fill the pump and preferably the feed pipe with oil first.
Sorry if I`m teaching Granny etc etc!
Pete
Posts: 1,665
By: richw_82 - 2nd December 2010 at 09:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Pete,
Your experiences sounds similar to ours. We're going to up the bore of the outlet pipe, as we believe this will help with flow and reduce any restriction we had there. We did get as far as removing the pipe and pumping into a container to check and to prime the pump but we believe the low temperatures aren't helping either, by thickening the new oil and that within the engines.
There's not going to be any work done this Saturday by the look of the weather, but we'll be there the following week and see how much further we can get.
Regards,
Rich
Posts: 1,665
By: richw_82 - 13th December 2010 at 22:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mon 13th Dec
I managed to get a bit of time off and went down to work Shackleton today. We were due to be getting a visit from a guy who rebuilds props with a view to doing ours but he had to cancel at the last minute.
This meant I was in a position where I had tools, time, and not a lot to occupy me... so with the other brave members of our group who had turned up we decided to take another look at the pre-oiling system. We weren't overly happy that we couldn't join in on the night runs, and we were determined to find the cause of the problem that prevented us.
After trying various combinations and setups, and by checking the oil flow at each stage we found a couple of restrictions that needed to be overcome, but the good news is this -
Before I left Coventry today, WR963's no.4 Griffon engine was successfully being pre-oiled by use of the onboard pump only - with all the cam lobes and fingers getting a good supply on both banks. There's a little more minor tweaking to be done; but its working!!
Regards,
Ric
Posts: 10,169
By: Peter - 14th December 2010 at 00:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thats promising news Richard!