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Avro Shackleton WR963 Project Thread

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    yes if below the water level there is a massive chance it will syphon or by vacum get pulled past the seal, clearing the drains and making sure when you open tank capsif there is a rush of air which will prove a vacum occurring, used to happen on cars years ago.. looks like an elimination process.
    SMOKE SMOKE GO!
    TA out

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      Hi all,

      Due to personal circumstances I've not been to Coventry for a few weeks. However the guys have been cracking on, and also doing a few bits on Nimrod XV232 for good measure. Also there's the odd interesting photo turned up from the archives... this one in particular being a favourite.

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        Nice picture!
        Possunt quia posse videntur (They can because they think they can; motto RAF 19 Squadron)

        tracesofwar.com/

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          Hello: What a fantastic effort your group/team have put into this Shackleton over the last 4+ years! I just spent an hour going through much of this 35 page thread and came away thoroughly impressed by your efforts. I'm looking forward to following your progress from here on in and seeing the video of taxi tests....and ultimately, first flight!

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            Thanks Swifter! There's plenty more to come.

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              Would have to agree with swifter. Your all doing an amazing job which is greatly appreciated by the public.

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                Any taxi runs planned for the early new year??

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                  Rich - did you get your comms issues sorted out?

                  I still have some photocopies from the AP (including some circuits) waiting to post off - just need to confirm the best postal address!!
                  Find out what's happening at newarkairmuseum.org
                  Please help move Chinook ZA717 to Newark Air Museum

                  Comment


                    Hi Howard,

                    We're still working through them, of the three V/UHF systems on the aircraft, it turned out only one was complete and unmolested. If I could still have those photocopies it would be a great help. I've pm'd you the best postal address.

                    Merry Christmas,

                    Rich

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                      Just back from a brisk walk to the post box (ahead of the rain) - drawings etc. now en route!

                      Season's greetings.
                      Find out what's happening at newarkairmuseum.org
                      Please help move Chinook ZA717 to Newark Air Museum

                      Comment


                        Hi all,

                        What with a new year upon us, I figure its long past update time. While we haven't been too busy on the aircraft herself over the past few months, various things are going on in the background that will have big effects over the next few years.

                        First up are the obvious problems we ran into during taxying. 2014 sees WR963 celebrate her 60th birthday, so we need little to no shenanigans from her.

                        The persistant issues with the fuel priming pump are becoming tedious; and while we can swap them out again and again it is becoming repetitive, and we're decimating the available stock. The priming pumps are comprised of three sections - pump, gearbox, and motor. The failure comes when the pump sits and moisture accumulates in it as its at the lowest point in the fuel system. The pump gets stiff, or seizes, then the fibre gears in the gearbox strip and the pump is then unserviceable. This usually blows the fuse, and is usually why we end up with no engines running (if the starboard pump fails), or just two on one side if we get No 3 and 4 started then the port pump fails...

                        While I'm led to believe it was a weak point, while the Shackleton was in service it wasn't as often as we get. The factors of regular usage and full fuel tanks helped a lot. With an aircraft that is stationary, and on half fuel load at best, there are a lot of places for moisture - be it condensation or rain - to get in. WL790 in the USA suffered similarly and her pumps were replaced with an item that was a little more hard wearing. Our plan is slightly different. Wired in with the power to the fuel priming pump, we now have a cut-off valve that isolates the fuel supply, only alolowing fuel to flow when the priming pump is switched on. In the next few weeks, we'll have the pipes made up to put these into the system. We've also sent one pump away for use as a pattern to have some new gears made that are slightly harder wearing than the original fibre items.

                        The communication problems turned out to be due to the fact all three V/UHF systems on WR963 had been altered or cannibalised at some point. The rear upper VHF antennae has been removed, as has much of the wiring including that to the set carried in the beam position. Some of it was used on DC-3 G-ANAF many years ago, some of it went to WL790. We're now at a point where the PTR 175 is working, the PTR 1751 is getting there, but there remains an intermittent problem somewhere where the intercom system links to the radio - it will be tracked down!


                        We've started working through the spares we hold, and rather than hang on to everything, we have been slowly dispersing some of the multiples of certain items out to other groups. Wheels, coolant tanks, a rear spinner and some glazing items have all gone - which has involved some heavy lifting as there was no room for forklift work! Thankfully, Ben Nash (Nashio966) and a few others were on hand to help with that. We are discovering more as we go - including a number of hydraulic spares which WR963 really needs, though no doubt we'll find even more as we disperse some more items and clear out empty boxes.


                        Ahead of us we still have plenty to do - there's still the bomb doors to look at, as their stumpy length is starting to annoy us all. WR963's anti-glare panel and a couple of other areas are getting revised to make the RAF happy, and with three years passed since the repaint, a thourough wash and a few bits of ceconite taping are on the cards to keep her looking good. I was threatened with bodily harm by some members of the Shackleton Association who preferred her to carry the 'used' look, but you can only let things go so far! (that, and I'm pretty sure I can outrun most of the Shack Assn..)


                        I haven't forgotten the various requests we've had, or promises we made for Avro stores carriers, Avro Ashton, and a couple of other drawings. As soon as I can get to it, I will make it available. The archive is still a mess following our move, but its slowly coming back into order, more so as we wade through trying to find out all WR963's records.

                        Following the decision to try to return WR963 to flight, two things asked of us by the CAA were a complete audit of all lifed components on the aircraft, and an assessment covering pre and post spar boom replacement and how it would change things for WR963. This was difficult to accomplish as there were large gaps in our records, then we had a surprising breakthrough in the form of some legacy documentation from our friends at Gatwick Aviation Museum. One of WR963's old MOD Form 700, covering her life from her conversion to AEW2 to near the end, and, almost to top that, fatigue meter readings for the entire period.

                        The result is that for the first time, we can pin down accurately how many hours are left on the lower spar booms, and a proven fatigue index worked out from meter readings taken from a 20 year period. The FI is yet to be calculated, as we have to find the calculation for the upper spar booms - a calculation that was taken from that for the AWA 650 Argosy Series 101, due to the Argosy's wing starting life as the Avro Type 733 (If anyone has the Argosy FI calculations, I'd love to see them). When spar boom cracks were found as the hours mounted, a calculation was done to work out the safe life of the top booms - which was then supplied to the MOD (PE) Central Defects Authority to check against Shackletons. This is the missing piece of our puzzle...!

                        The new piece, happily, is that WR963 has 594 hours left on her lower spar booms...



                        For those that want to come and see WR963 and talk all things Shackleton, we next intend to carry out a run up on 25th January 2014, at 1300 hrs.


                        Happy New Year,

                        Rich W
                        SPT

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                          Originally posted by richw_82 View Post
                          Hi all,

                          The FI is yet to be calculated, as we have to find the calculation for the upper spar booms - a calculation that was taken from that for the AWA 650 Argosy Series 101, due to the Argosy's wing starting life as the Avro Type 733 (If anyone has the Argosy FI calculations, I'd love to see them).

                          Rich W
                          SPT
                          It would be worth talking to the Midland Air Museum - just up the road! I remember some years back when I was an active member they received a whole stack of paperwork on the Argosy, relating to stress calcs, and possibly Fatigue. I'm not sure if it was passed onto the Herbert Museum, but Barry James will know.
                          Mark Ray
                          WWW.Demobbed.org.uk

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                            Pleased to see progress is being made. See you down there soon
                            http://www.mainlymilitary.co.uk/

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                              WR963's anti-glare panel and a couple of other areas are getting revised to make the RAF happy
                              What are you having to do the keep them happy? And why? Just interested!

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                                Its just in regards to accurate colour schemes when operating military aircraft. You have to submit the colours of the aircraft and evidence to support it to the RAF. We don't want to cause ourselves problems further down the line, so we're taking steps to get it that bit closer.

                                The red spinners are okay as 224 Sqn aircraft did carry them (WR963's pilot from that period can't recall if she did or not) but the glare panel is definitely wrong and has to go.

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                                  I haven't got the slightest idea if this might help, but when doing a quick google on the PTR1751 you refered to Rich, I came across an ebay link to what looks an impressive set-up using that? Maybe the seller has some knowledge of these systems that may be of use if you contact them? (I wonder how they might see the chance of working on an installed example inside a Shackleton as a chance to be grabbed?)

                                  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PTR1751-AD...item1e85583d7a
                                  Pete Buckingham
                                  Former RAF Engineer
                                  Volunteer in Aviation
                                  http://hunterxf382.weebly.com/

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                                    Thanks for the detailed update Rich!

                                    It's always interesting to see what goes into maintaining these aircraft.

                                    Greg

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by hunterxf382 View Post
                                      I haven't got the slightest idea if this might help, but when doing a quick google on the PTR1751 you refered to Rich, I came across an ebay link to what looks an impressive set-up using that?
                                      Thanks for the link! TonyT also brought it up in another thread, and we are chasing it.

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                                        [QUOTE= We've also sent one pump away for use as a pattern to have some new gears made that are slightly harder wearing than the original fibre items. [/QUOTE]

                                        Rich I would be very cautious indeed with such a local mod. The Paxolin gear will have been specified to that particular shear loading to make sure that it DOES strip when the gearing stiffens up. This was a potential problem even in service for many 50-60's aircraft, hence why a sacrificial gear was introduced. Pumps and cocks on the jets, use a calculated shear pin loading for the transfer gear instead, for exactly the same reason. This is done to stop excessive current draw, which would allow the motor to repeatedly overheat, and the armature/ field coils burn up starting a fire if it gets outside the motor casing!

                                        It is Avgas after all, and it will go up instantly. Remember the motor is drawing something like 8-12 Amps initial (on a free serviceable gearbox), dropping to about 3-4 Amps continuous. The wiring, field coils, Armature and contactors are not designed or specified to experience excessive high load for more than 5-10 seconds. if you are going to put in a stronger gear, do the load calculations and then drop the circuit fuse rating down by the same % that you have increased the load capacity on the gear

                                        The inline priming line isolation valve should suffice really. Any mods you carry out, outside of the ministry specification or design standard will only cause you big stumbling blocks down the line with your certification process. if you are going to do them now, try and do them once, using released Mods.
                                        Last edited by mjr; 8th January 2014, 12:08.
                                        http://www.gatwick-aviation-museum.c...g/mainsite.htm

                                        Comment


                                          I can find you a good size box of pumps I reckon - keep new ones for return to flight, and go through the old ones for the time being. Can you find a way of inhibiting them after a run, so that they don't attract water?

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