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By: - 19th July 2010 at 22:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Does anybody have an idea of where I could look to find this? I have sent an email iquiry to RAFM Hendon and waiting for a reply from them. I have a feeling this may take a while. The search coninues.
By: - 19th July 2010 at 22:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Don't worry about the silence - I think this means that the people who have seen your post so far have nothing for you as yet. Don't give up!
By: - 20th July 2010 at 00:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks, Beermat. I'm gonna hang in there. One of the guys from WW2 Warbirds told me this was the place to go.
By: - 20th July 2010 at 11:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The likeliest place is the Operations Record Book, which is held in the National Archives (Public Records Office, before it went all precious.) The books have been transferred onto microfilm, due to heavy use, and there are, at present, no plans to make them available on-line, so a visit to Kew is mandatory. Intelligence Officers rarely entered the serial and the code, in fact, at times, they entered neither, so any researcher needs to be prepared for disappointment. A clue can be found in the old "Fighter Squadrons of the RAF and their aircraft," by John D.R. Rawlings (published over 40 years ago,) since he obviously used the ORBs, in his researches. If there is a reference, he tended to include it, and, sad to say, there are very few serial/code combinations, for 54 Squadron, in the book, in fact he found more pre-war "DL" codes, than the wartime "KL."
Edgar
By: - 20th July 2010 at 12:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is a painting of the action between F/L Basil 'Wonky' Way and Adolf Galland by Ivan Berryman. Unfortunately he has portrayed the Spitfire in such a way that the code letter is indistinguishable so I presume he also had no idea what it was!
Regarding the National Archives, I think it is highly unlikely that the code letter will be in the squadron ORB. The best chance is if someone has a photo.
Peter
By: - 20th July 2010 at 12:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Strong possibility it was 'KL - R', from the following:
R6707 Ia 761 EA MIII FF 8-6-40 9MU 9-6-40 54S 12-6-40 shot down by Bf109 over convoy nr Dover F/Lt Way FTR 25-7-40
R6708 Ia 762 EA MIII FF 8-6-40 9MU 9-6-40 54S 'KL-S' 12-6-40 shot down by Bf109 off Deal Sgt Collett killed 22-8-40 SOC 29-8-40
R6709 Ia 763 EA MIII FF 8-6-40 9MU 9-6-40 54S 'KL-T' 12-6-40 41S 22-2-41 452S 9-4-41 313S 16-6-41 Missing escorting Blenheims to Comines 26-6-41
(courtesy of http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/p009.htm)
By: - 20th July 2010 at 15:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Strong possibility it was 'KL - R', from the following:R6707 Ia 761 EA MIII FF 8-6-40 9MU 9-6-40 54S 12-6-40 shot down by Bf109 over convoy nr Dover F/Lt Way FTR 25-7-40
R6708 Ia 762 EA MIII FF 8-6-40 9MU 9-6-40 54S 'KL-S' 12-6-40 shot down by Bf109 off Deal Sgt Collett killed 22-8-40 SOC 29-8-40
R6709 Ia 763 EA MIII FF 8-6-40 9MU 9-6-40 54S 'KL-T' 12-6-40 41S 22-2-41 452S 9-4-41 313S 16-6-41 Missing escorting Blenheims to Comines 26-6-41
(courtesy of http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/p009.htm)
I have seen this same list, but it did not occur to me though about the letter codes being consecutive with the S/N.
There is another painting that shows 54 Squadron attacking a formation of bombers that has Way's Spitfire. It appeared to me that the letter code was F. I'm going to take another look.
Monsun has the ultimate solution. Somewhere there is probably a photo of this Spitfire. The question is where.
I want to thank you all in helping me with my quest.
JRW
By: - 20th July 2010 at 16:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I checked the other painting that I mention and F was the letter on the Spitfire shown.
I did a search on Adolf Galland and on 25-7-1940 he did shoot down one Spitfire from 54 Squadron over Dover so it may have been Way's.
By: - 20th July 2010 at 18:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The likeliest place is the Operations Record Book, which is held in the National Archives (Public Records Office, before it went all precious.) The books have been transferred onto microfilm, due to heavy use, and there are, at present, no plans to make them available on-line, so a visit to Kew is mandatory.
Not at all. You can purchase a DVD copy online. The last time I did, it cost about £55 and took nearly two months to arrive. I think now they can provide a file to download in 24 hours.
By: - 25th July 2010 at 15:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have seen this same list, but it did not occur to me though about the letter codes being consecutive with the S/N.
Often, this is no indication at all - but in this case the date of these three aircraft being taken on charge being the same suggests that the two consecutive letters could possibly indicate a third.
Is this painting of R6707, or just of a Spitfire flown by Way? Even if it is, I'd treat a painting with caution as evidence - unless you can track down the artist and it turns out they have seen the photograph (or ORB entry) you're looking for.
By: - 26th July 2010 at 00:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
My wishful thinking is that possibly the artist had a photo of R6707, and either glare or an obstruction could have made it look like an F. Again this is wishful thinking on my part. I am still inclined to go with the R.
Question: During the BOB were pilots assigned a particular fighter or were they assigned any operational aircraft on a given day?
By: - 26th July 2010 at 09:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As I understand it pilots would indeed have their 'own' aircraft, but which one this was did change with serviceability etc. ORB's, logbooks etc show this to be the general pattern in most cases - a series of sorties in one a/c, then a series in another, sometimes interupted by the odd one in a 'spare' due to a last minute hitch with their 'own' mount. Peronalisation of aircraft - not uncommon in a low-key kind of way - also indicates 'ownership'
There are proper experts on here who know much more - Andy, care to comment?
Regarding the R into F theory - its possible! It might also be the case that having no idea as to the correct letter the artist chose one that was undocumented elsewhere so that no-one would argue ;)
By: - 26th July 2010 at 11:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi,
The attached from the old RAF records site doesn't provide any further details I'm afraid. But it will save you a further search.
Gerry
By: - 26th July 2010 at 12:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
:eek: Where's that site, Gerry?
By: - 26th July 2010 at 12:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
it's at www.oldrafrecords.com.
Gerry
By: - 26th July 2010 at 13:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks! That is going to be a hell of a resource when it's properly populated..
By: - 26th July 2010 at 16:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Great! More info. I went to the oldrafrecords site and started looking around. If Each pilot was assigned an aircraft then apparently Way was assigned R6708 KL-S. He did fly R6707 on July 24 and 25 the day he was shot down.
This whole search has been very interesting. In the past I have never gone into this much effort on a model. I any case if I can't find definite conformation of the letter for R6707 I do have all that I need for R6708.
I want to thank you all for the help and encouragement to keep up the search.
Are there any books on 54 Squadron during the BOB?
Regards
John
By: - 26th July 2010 at 18:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Are there any books on 54 Squadron during the BOB?
Al Deere's autobiography is a good read, but it won't have the detail you're looking for.
By: - 26th July 2010 at 20:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I read Al Deere's book several years ago and agree it is a good read.
By: - 26th July 2010 at 20:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Have you tried cross referencing the armaments paperwork after each sortie?That sometimes has radio letters.
Posts: 44
By: jrw128 - 19th July 2010 at 15:01
My name is John and this is my first post on this site.
I am looking for the individual letter code for a Spitfire MK IA S/N R6707 that served with No. 54 Squadron that was shot down on july 25, 1940. The pilot was F/lt Basil H. Way. I have read that he was shot down by Adolf Galland, but can't confirm this. I have surfed the web and came up empty handed except for the information above. If anyone has any idea of what the ID letter I would greatly appreciate it; I want to build a model of this particular A/C for a group build.
Thanks
JRW