Read the forum code of contact
By: - 26th May 2010 at 13:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hello and welcome to the Forum with your question. I cannot see any major accidents in the UK in the three months before this date.
Was the accident in the UK and was it a civil aircraft?
By: - 26th May 2010 at 13:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The date is correct. The aircraft involved was Chipmunk T10 WP780 and the accident occurred north of Otterburn.
The aircraft was one of a formation of three making low level runs over spectators at an observation post. During one pass, the aircraft made a turn to port at very low level and the wing tip struck some of the spectators. The aircraft then struck the ground and cartwheeled down a hill. The injured were the aircraft's two crew; Flight Lieutenant Richard Potts and Officer Cadet Michael Hanson; as well as Corporal George Imrie, Officer Cadet Heather Maxwell, Officer Cadet Yvonne Horsburgh, Sergeant Dorothy Boyland, Corporal Leonard Arrowsmith and Quartermaster Sergeant Thomas Couse.
Those killed were:
Sergeant Ewart Anthony Austin, 26.
Officer Cadet Margaret Nora Holwell, 19.
Officer Cadet Margaret Elizabeth Gardner, 20.
Officer Cadet Alan Terence Holmes, 21.
Officer Cadet Keith Forrester Steadman, 21.
Officer Cadet Pauline Therese McHaffie, 19.
Above information from Category Five by Colin Cummings.
Hope this is of interest.
Regards,
kev35
By: - 26th May 2010 at 13:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Excellent
I had hopes of some sort of reply within a few days
Not a full reply inside an hour
Thank you very much Kev35
I had not realised it involved military aircraft
I had not realised it was so serious an accident, six dead, nine injured and all but forgotten, I think I will look out the newspaper reports
My Mother was a friend of Keith Steadman who is buried in Huyton, nr Liverpool
By: - 26th May 2010 at 13:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Purely out of interest, in this case or similar, is the pilot of the aircraft held criminally responsible for causing the deaths of those involved due to careless or negligent flying?
By: - 26th May 2010 at 13:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In addition:
Sgt. Austin was in the Royal Artillery and serving on the permanent staff of the Durham OTC. He was born on the 12th of March 1929 and is interred at Newcastle Crematorium. His Service Number is 19174326.
Officer Cadet Margaret Nora Holwell was serving in the WRAC with the Service Number W391009. She was born on the 30th April 1935 and is buried at Bellingham Northumberland.
Officer Cadet Margaret Elizabeth Gardner was serving in the WRAC with the Service Number W390844. She was born on the 2nd September 1934.
Officer Cadet Alan Terence Holmes was serving in the Army with the Service Number 22778416. He was born on the 5th December 1933.
Officer Cadet Keith Forrester Steadman was serving in the Army with the Service Number 23216233. He was born on the 15th February 1934 and is buried at Huyton Parish Cemetery.
Officer Cadet Pauline Anne Therese McHaffie was serving with the WRAC with the Service Number W391619. She was born on the 29th February 1936.
The above information was extracted from the Armed Forces Roll of Honour created by the National Memorial Arboretum.
In answer to Red Hunter's question, I suspect the information in my original post regarding the cause of the accident originally cam from the movement card for the aircraft involved. This should be available from DoRIS at Hendon and if the OP wishes me to I will request a copy of the card today. it usually takes about a month to come through. There may well be a short note regarding blame attached to the loss card for the aircraft as I would presume it would have been written off.
Maybe more later.
Regards,
kev35
By: - 26th May 2010 at 14:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There may well be a short note regarding blame attached to the loss card for the aircraft as I would presume it would have been written off.kev35
Odd that UK serials record it as w/o 30/1/55, probably an error.
By: - 26th May 2010 at 16:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well done Kev, but what a sad occurance.
By: - 26th May 2010 at 20:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I've found a little more but can only (hopefully) provide links. The first is from the Glasgow Herald for April 2nd 1955:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=gBE1AAAAIBAJ&sjid=t6ULAAAAIBAJ&pg=5200,3800327&hl=en
The next is from the Schenectady Gazette for the same date:
The Glasgow Herald piece is particularly informative.
Regards,
kev35
By: - 26th May 2010 at 20:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, good links there with the usual journalistic hyperbole.
By: - 26th May 2010 at 20:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I've also been trawling the London Gazette for mentions of any RAF Officers recorded using the name Richard Potts or R Potts. Interestingly, I can only find one. This is an R Potts with a Service Number of 176963.
The first mention of him is in the London Gazette for 12/12/44 confirming his promotion from Pilot Officer (probation) to Flying Officer, effective 19/11/44.
His next appearance is in the Gazette for 11/6/46 confirming promotion from Pilot Officer to Flying Officer effective 19/5/46. (This appears to contradict the mention above. I suspect that this is because at the end of the war, Officers retained generally dropped one rank, thereby reducing him to Pilot Officer. This entry is his 'proper' promotion to Flying Officer.)
He is promoted to Flight Lieutenant in the Gazette of 12/12/47, effective 19/11/47.
The next entry is in the Gazette is for 15/2/49 confirming an eight year extension of service effective from 1/5/47. This is important as the next entry confirms his transfer to the Reserve, eight years later. In the Gazette for the 20/5/55, he is confirmed as entering the Reserve effective 1/5/55.
Of course, I can't be certain this man is the right R Potts but dates and rank seem to suggest there is a very strong possibility that it is.
Regards,
kev35
By: - 26th May 2010 at 23:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Another superb bit of sleuthing, Kev.
It's the level of detail you achieve that moves an answer into an interest.
As you rightly surmise, the general practice in wartime was for promotions to be "Acting" "Temporary" or "War Substantive" promotions one rank above the "Paid" rank. This was to give a chance to see that they could perform the more responsible duties.
At the Wars end, the "Paid" rank was what you were demobbed as, not the "War Substantive" one.
So your R Potts seems to be the right one.
What a terrible burden that accident must have been. Mind you, with a fixed undercarriage, I'm surprised that it was only the wing tip that hit the spectators.
You can't say anyone in a Chippie is "beating up" or being overly reckless, they seem to have been a dream to fly. I'd suspect that wind currents around the hill more to blame than pilot recklessness.
It's a bit like accusing a Reliant Robin driver of speeding. He'd frame the ticket!
By: - 27th May 2010 at 00:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Icare9
"Another superb bit of sleuthing."
Indeed, but sadly an incorrect bit of sleuthing. Just found the following thread on RAF Commands;
http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6333&page=2
The pilot of WP780 was in fact a Richard Vere Potts AFC. It just goes to show that you can be easily caught out when you can't find anything else substantial to either confirm or deny the supposition being made. Apologies to everyone for the confusion.
From reading the other thread it appears he was docked two years seniority and severely reprimanded over the incident. One can only imagine that the sanctions imposed by the RAF were nothing compared to the personal responsibility he might have felt at being found to be the cause of so many deaths and injuries.
Apologies once again.
Regards,
kev35
By: - 27th May 2010 at 08:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And I would add, Kev, that neither the sanctions imposed on him, nor his feelings, would be any consoloation to the families of those whose deaths he caused. In the litiginous times in which we now live matters may well have ended up in court. And to pick up another comment, whether you are flying a Chippie or driving a Robin, you should always allow for adverse conditions when making your manoevres. A very sad affair indeed.
By: - 27th May 2010 at 09:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Red hunter, you weren't there - I do hate this retro apportion of blame (partly fired by todays culture of blame), there could have been other mitigating circumstances that we do not know of, as Kev points out, living with the burden of what happenened would be severe.
By: - 27th May 2010 at 10:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, indeed I was not. Presumably there was an enquiry and presumably someone was blamed at the time. I am not apportioning blame merely observing that the sanctions imposed on the pilot, who presumably was to blame otherwise he would not have punished, will have been of little compensation to those whose lives were lost as a result of the accident. I further made the point that in today's litiginous society further actrion might well have been taken.
By: - 27th May 2010 at 10:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
FFS, let's not end this thread on the "compensayshun" malarky.
There's no evidence that he MEANT to hit them! They are just as much to "blame" if you want to look at it that way, they should have ducked!
The guy retired at his own request shortly after, what more do you want?
By: - 27th May 2010 at 11:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I am not asking for anything. I made some observations, which seem to have been seized upon as a thirst for vengeance. The matter is history and probably best left there. As for your, hopefully, jocular comment about the dead and injured ducking, I didn't think it in the best taste.
By: - 27th May 2010 at 22:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Red Hunter.
I'm wondering what your view of an appropriate punishment would have been for Flight Lieutenant Potts? I expect he found it more than hard enough to live with, so the question is what sort of punishment or sentence would have assuaged the anguish of the families of those who died? Or of those who were injured?
It's a sad and tragic accident. There is no good to come from it. It might be as well to remember that some of those injured, as well as Flight Lieutenant Potts, may still be alive. May even at some stage become aware of a thread such as this.
The apportioning of blame is not something I'm interested in regarding this incident. Remembrance, however, is.
Regards,
kev35
By: - 27th May 2010 at 22:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thank you for finishing the story with so much detail
I had not expected to get such a complete story from my simple inquiry
Being involved in such a devastating incident as this must have stayed with everyone concerned for the rest of their lives - Keiths parents died in 1978 & 1988 and are buried with their son in Huyton
By: - 28th May 2010 at 07:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Unfortunately, for whatever reason, my intervention and my comments have been both misinterpreted and misinferred, so it would clearly be unhelpful for me to make any further comment on this extremely sad and regrettable incident.
Posts: 3
By: sdw1363 - 26th May 2010 at 12:48
I am trying to trace an aviation incident in 1955
A school friend of my Mother's was killed in an 'flying accident', he died 1st April 1955
At the time he was in Durham University OTC
My Mother recalls the story at the time was of several fatalities on the ground due to being hit by an aircraft whilst standing on a hillside
This may be totally wrong and the incident may have been before 1st April