Sea Heron designation

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http://www.worldairpics.com/photo/1035013/L/De-Havilland-DH-114-Sea-Heron-C1/XR443/Royal-Navy/?&sid=&sp=

Can anyone help with the correct designation for the Royal Navy's fleet of Sea Heron's XR441 - XR445.

I have always referred to them as Sea Heron C.1 but often see them referred to as C.2 and also C.20.

Perhaps we can clear the muddy waters but somehow I doubt it.

Thanks

Steve

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There was also a Sea Heron C.4.

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I wonder if C1 refers to it being the fixed undercarriage series 1 aircraft and C2 the retract equipped series 2. The RAF operated one C3 and three C4 Herons.

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Hi pagen01

[ATTACH]183203[/ATTACH]

I think you refer to XM296, now there is another debate, did she ever become a Sea Heron or just Heron in Royal Navy service. Again several designations used. (C.3 C.4 and also CC.4).

And while we are on the subject of Heron's, I seem to recollect XR391 being used for a short time in 1970 by the Royal Navy while still in Queens Flight colours (If anyone can confirm or deny this I would love to hear from them)

Steve

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Owen Thetford gives XG603 as a C3 and XM295, XM296 and XR391 as C4s with the RAF. This in a section at the back of his book 'Aircraft of the Royal Air Force since 1918'. No mention of any secondments of course!

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Owen Thetford gives XG603 as a C3 and XM295, XM296 and XR391 as C4s with the RAF. This in a section at the back of his book 'Aircraft of the Royal Air Force since 1918'. No mention of any secondments of course!

And his similar tome on the FAA gives Sea Heron C20 XR441 -445.

IIRC ex-RAF Herons retained their RAF mk no for paperwork reasons (e.g. technical manuals)

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According to Graham Cowell "de Havilland Heron":
dH.114 series 2 14007 C1 RAF XL961 (1956, Princess Margret, Africa)
dH.114 series 2B 14058 C2 RAF XG603 British Joint Services Mission, Washington
dH.114 series 2B 14059 C3 RAF Queens Flight XH375
dH.114 series 3 14129 C4 RAF Queens Flight XM295
dH.114 series 3 14130 C4 RAF Queens Flight XM296 (1958-72)
dh.114 series 4 14141 C4 RAF Queens Flight XR391

dH.114 series 2B 14101 Sea Heron C20 RN XR441
dH.114 series 2B 14102 Sea Heron C20 RN XR442
dH.114 series 2 14072 Sea Heron C20 RN XR443
dH.114 series 2 14091 Sea Heron C20 RN XR444 (crashed Jun 26, 1972)
dH.114 series 3 14130 C4 RN Naval Air Command XM296 (1972 -) replaced XR444
dH.114 series 2 14092 Sea Heron C20 RN XR445

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Sea Heron C.20 sounds like the correct designation.
back yonder a type that was already used by the RAF would recieve a 20+ mark number by the FAA.
ie Vampire F.1 / Sea Vampire F.20, Vampire T.11 / Sea Vampire T.22, Devon C.1 / Sea Devon C.20, Meteor NF.11 / Meteor TT.20.
However all these types are second-line or training aircraft (as is the Sea Fury T.20) so that may have something to do with it, also it only applies to some types, ie Meteor T.7 is an exception, and it seems the scheme stopped by the early 1960s?

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I'm guessing XR444 crashed through stalling on approach given the Dove's record in that situation?

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Wasn't that the one that successfully ditched into the Irish Sea after encountering fuel problems?

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Wasn't that the one that successfully ditched into the Irish Sea after encountering fuel problems?

June 26, 1972, on a routine flight from Lee to Belfast, ditched into the Irish Sea 15 miles off the coast after all four engines failed due to fuel mismanagement. All 11 occupants were rescued safely. It was salvaged, moved to the accident unit at Lee, by road to RAF Bicester (April 1973), finally to the Army and moved to Melton Mowbray for ground instruction (April 19, 1973), scrapped .80

see also: http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1350584

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Well, that's a bit different!
So someone got a soaking and a dressing down on the carpet all on the same day!

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Sea Heron XR443

Sea Heron C20 XR443 started life as cn 14072 with West African Airways Corp as VR-NAQ. It later went to Overseas Aviation as G-ARKU. It was converted to Sea Heron C20 XR443, then retired in 1989 as G-ORSJ (I have a photo of it at Booker in 1990), before being reregistered as G-ODLG. From there it went to Australia as VH-NJP in 1993. It was finally bought for the Al Mahatta Museum on the site of the old RAF Sharjah in the UAE, being repainted to represent G-ANFE (of Gulf Aviation). It still resides in its spotless hangar in Sharjah. The cn plate 14072 is still attached behind the co-pilot's seat, but "NJP" is hand written on the roof above the captain. Interestingly, in photos of it in RN service its seats seem to be red, whereas now they are comfortable green leather.
http://sites.google.com/site/lgarey/rafsharjah%2Calmahattamuseum

Laurence

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Hi Laurence,
according to Eastwood/Roach and GINFO I made a comparison between 14072 and 14092

14072
13.4.55 del West African Airways Corporation VR-NAQ
1.10.58 nn West African Airways (Nigeria) Ltd.
28.8.60 bt Overseas Aviation
17.3.61 rr Overseas Aviation Ltd. G-ARKU
28.3.61 bt (Admirality) Royal Navy XR443
12.89 wfu & stored Shawbury
20.4.90 bt David Liddell-Grainger G-ODLG/R1
2.1.92 bt RSJ Aviation International Ltd. G-ODLG/R2 -23.8.93
31.8.93 bt IBJ International Aviation G-ODLG/R3
8.9.93 rr IBJ International Aviation VH-NJP
9.93 lsd Heron Airways
11.95 wfu & stored Sydney, Australia
2003 bt Al Mahatta museum Sharjah, fake registration G-ANFE

14092
11.1.56 del West African Airways Corporation VR-NCF
1.10.58 nn Nigeria Airways
23.10.60 bt Overseas Aviation
17.3.61 rr Overseas Aviation Ltd. G-ARKW
28.3.61 bt (Admirality) Royal Navy XR445
12.89 wfu & stored Shawbury
20.4.90 bt David Liddell-Grainger G-ORSJ/R1
2.1.92 bt RSJ Aviation International Ltd. G-ORSJ/R2
23.8.93 wfu & stored for spares Booker, Berkshire
.96 scrapped Booker
remains to fire dump

You can see both planes together on images August and October 1990 at Wycombe Air park, Booker (Air-Britain)

Martin

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Thanks Martin. I shall immediately update my records.

Laurence

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Hi, looking for photos and history of RAF Heron XG603, I found a couple on the web, thats about all. XG603 was converted into Saunders Aircraft Canada ST-27 001 in Montreal, the saunders Canada operation later moved to Gimli Manitoba. We are doing a series of blog articles on Saunders Aircraft and the Heron information ties into our stories. cheers -- ken kalynuk [email]kenkalynuk@gmail.com[/email] https://saundersaircraft.blogspot.com/2019/01/saunders-aircraft-st-27-013-dehavilland.html

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The proper designation for XR441 to XR445 was C.Mk.1. There was one C.Mk.4 (XM296) and one CC.Mk.4 (XR391, ex-Queen's Flight). As per the Pilot's Notes. Thetford got confused with the Sea Devons which were C.Mk.20s (with the exception of one ex-RAF C.Mk.2 - often, and erroneously - referred to as a 'C.2/2'). No other variations need be profferred!

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So were these Sea Heron C1s as a separate designator to Heron C1?

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sorry for the highjack can't start a new thread, is the forum faulty

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The Air Britain monograph on the DH.104 Dove and DH.114 Heron compiled by C.Barber, D.Shaw and T.Sykes and published in 1973 - so contemporary with the Sea Herons being in service use the designation C.20. In the introductions there is a statement "Five ex-civil Heron 2's modified for the Royal Navy were delivered as the Sea Heron C mk 20."

However MAS (Merseyside Aviation Society) pioneering 'British Air Arms' 1977 B.Billington, PH.Butler horrifyingly calls them Hawker Siddeley Sea Heron C.1 - which is interesting as I was part of the proof-reading team and my instinct today is that they were C.20s and what I was setting out to prove (now looking to be incorrect!)

BARG (British Aviation Research Group) oversized tome 'British Military Aircraft Serials and Markings' of 1980 M.Pettit, M.Draper. D.Rough (FAA research), T.Stone refer to the aircraft as Sea Heron C.1.

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Two unexpected occurrences:

One, when posted, all my paragraphs have run into one.

Two, the ability to 'edit' has gone AWOL.

Added in later on 'edit' - both fixed within a couple of hours. Excellent - thank you. Now edited my posts back to the intended appearance.

I was about to add that my mid 1970's hand written 'aircraft spotter' logs record the RN Sea Herons as C.20 - at the same time as the book I was involved in the fringes of developing, was referring to C.1s. Yet I don't recall there being a dispute at the time over designations.

Looking back over this thread, I would now go for the confusion with the Sea Devon C.20 theory. Certainly I've now got to go back into my research into the 1970s Liverpool Airport Visiting Aircraft Logs that I'm preparing for another web-site and change all references of Sea Heron C.20 to C.1.

Incidentally there is a passing reference in a post above to the RAF Devon C.2/2 designation. This was applied (possibly unofficially?) to DH Devons rebuilt at HSA Hawarden with the cockpit shape revised to that of the later civilian design mark (the Mk.8?) in the early 1970s.