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    The US killer guns, death and destruction thread

    The title is ironic, but the sentiment isn't.

    Victim shot by police in Indianapolis after robbery.

    Carl Williams, 48, dialed 911 around 4:30 a.m. Tuesday to alert cops a man with a rifle forced his wife to give him her car keys then drove off with her car, according to Indianapolis police. Yet Officer Christopher Mills wound up shooting Williams in the stomach, investigators said.

    Williams, a black Air Force veteran who has worked as a postal employee for the past 16 years, was recuperating Thursday at his familys eastern Indianapolis home, his lawyer Richard Hailey said in a statement.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.2766242
    A few things to defend the police here - they were told a car was stolen but it was parked outside the house when they arrived, the man came out of the houses garage with his gun visible, he was black...

    The police shooting of a Brooklyn teen nearly three years ago is now being compared with that of Tamir Rice after surveillance video reveals the 15-year-old posed no threat at the time.

    Keston Charles, who had been wielding a BB gun, was shot three times by Officer Jonathan Rivera who fired 16 times at the teen during a foot chase.

    Unlike Rice, the 12-year-old boy who was shot to death by Cleveland police while holding a pellet gun in November 2014, Charles was lucky to survive.

    https://news.google.com/news/story?n...dGCHcQqgIIKDAA
    The video - on the site above - shows the boy running, looking over his shoulder but never aiming his 'gun' as the police insisted he did (and thereby justifying their use of deadly force) to defend their case. 16 shots, from just one officer, the boy was hit once in a buttock and twice in the chest - the last two when he was standing with his hands up surrendering, verified by a former New York City chief medical examiner.
    He was black, like the boy from Cleveland, but at least he survived.



    Ok, let the nutters reply...;o)

    #2
    Oh dear.

    A US National Football League (NFL) quarterback has refused to stand for the national anthem in protest at what he sees as racial injustice.
    Colin Kaepernick, who plays with the San Francisco 49ers, remained seated as the anthem was played.
    "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of colour," he explained.
    Some fans booed the player when he took to the pitch...

    ...Kaepernick has been outspoken on social media about race relations and a supporter of the Black Lives Matter movement.
    "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way," Kaepernick told NFL Media.
    "There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder.''
    He appeared to be referring to police use of deadly force which sparked the Black Lives Matter protests.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37205032
    Of course the majority will, metaphorically, shoot the messenger and ignore the message.

    Comment


      #3
      Killer GUNS

      Oh me, oh my, they will hunt you down force you to load them and make you use them kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, blah, blah, blah....

      Comment


        #4
        No Yank dickheads with killer guns. One point to add in a civilised society we do not need privately owned guns to protect us. Welcome back RpR I have missed you like a bad case of piles!
        I have kleptomania,But when it gets bad
        I take something for it.

        Comment


          #5
          Ah ha, I called for nutters; more fool me.

          Originally posted by RpR View Post
          Killer GUNS
          Hi, long time no appearance.

          Yes, I am well aware that you believe them to be tools, like a screwdriver or a spanner. But if I don't have a spanner I cannot get the wheel off my bike: true?

          Guns don't kill people rappers do / So do the police / Woo woo woo… - Goldie Lookin Chain

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by paul178 View Post
            No Yank dickheads with killer guns. One point to add in a civilised society we do not need privately owned guns to protect us. Welcome back RpR I have missed you like a bad case of piles!
            I just said those guns they track you down hynotize you i.nto loading them and then they control you as they take you out to kill people, we are helpless.
            By his thread title snafu realizes this.
            Do you have a reading problem?

            You should really treat those piles.

            Snafu:

            That football player babbles about oppression while black on black crime in Chicago leaves hundreds dead.
            Liberals and the black " public leaders" ignore this fact while speaking moronical bits about why BLM exists.
            If they cared one slight bit about black lives they would have a campaign to do something about Chicago crime.
            Last edited by RpR; 28th August 2016, 23:53.

            Comment


              #7
              Maybe the problem as they see it isn't so much that there is a black on black crime problem (if they didn't have access to guns...;o)) but that the US police appear to withdraw their guns and fire them for the simplest of reasons. They are almost like a toddlers security blanket - something to grip on to when there is a scarey problem. Worldwide there will always be a lot more interest in a story with a video of a cop shooting a man in the back for running away from a traffic stop, complete with the false claim that he had made a grab for the officer's weapon, which makes police all over the world look like they were in on the lie. Man shoots other man outside a bar happens all the time, but the cops being caught out and seen to be caught out is newsworthy.

              In Britain armed police are supposed to yell 'ARMED POLICE' before using their weapons; obviously there will be occasions when the situation makes that impossible, and there have been times when no witnesses heard those words being called although all the police insist they heard it despite the fact that the requisite video either never caught the warning or was mysteriously either not working or the video itself 'disappeared'. The man in Indianapolis coming out of his garage wouldn't have seen the police and they were apparently behind cover anyway so there seems to be no reason not to shout a warning that the suspect was covered, any problem after the warning could allow the shooting to have happened without the bad PR for the cops. Under these circumstances the man would - hopefully - have heard the warning, lowered his gun to the ground and all would have been sorted out. Had he been a bad guy and levelled his weapon they could have shot him, or if he had lowered it in surrender they could have arrested him, but to just fire at someone because he had a gun and without verifying his intentions is, essentially, stupid and always going to lead to bad publicity for the police one way or another.

              The boy ran; he believed himself to be in trouble and like all kids would do his best to get away. The cops hit him once and he surrendered - so what the hell was the point in firing at him after his hands were up? The door was locked, the boy was wounded, there were three officers and the only reason that makes any sense is that they were upset that he had made them run and one of them wanted revenge. Shooting whilst running might keep the boy from slowing down, for fear of being shot, but - in the eyes of the officers - also stop him from trying to fire back, yet not only was the boy given incentive not to stop but others who see this video and hear about the story will have second thoughts for fear that if they do stop they will still be gunned down: it could be said to be the same option as surrendering to Isis and getting shot (beheaded, burned alive, gunned down by kids, etc) or keep on running and maybe getting away.

              Wasting my time telling you this, but the others who read it can make their own minds up so don't forget that when slinging racial stereotypes around...

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by snafu View Post
                Maybe the problem as they see it isn't so much that there is a black on black crime problem (if they didn't have access to guns...;o)) but that the US police appear to withdraw their guns and fire them for the simplest of reasons. They are almost like a toddlers security blanket - something to grip on to when there is a scarey problem. Worldwide there will always be a lot more interest in a story with a video of a cop shooting a man in the back for running away from a traffic stop, complete with the false claim that he had made a grab for the officer's weapon, which makes police all over the world look like they were in on the lie. Man shoots other man outside a bar happens all the time, but the cops being caught out and seen to be caught out is newsworthy.


                Wasting my time telling you this, but the others who read it can make their own minds up so don't forget that when slinging racial stereotypes around...
                There has been a problem with the way law officers are trained for long, long, long time. The first people to tell me this were former policemen and sheriffs.

                One said they have to deprogram them when they come out of the academy but at the same time the politicians who control the police force have taken away the discretion officers used to have in enforcing the law. They are told my way or the highway.
                If two gents had a scuffle, it used to be the law would tell them unless they want to be arrested to go home and cool off; now, even when the fact is obvious and witnesses loudly cry so, BOTH are handcuffed and arrested and taken to jail.
                I am not saying that law enforcement in the country is not becoming the very thing some movies show from utopian societies where every thing is illegal but guns are not the heart of the problem nor a major factor in changing how police work is done.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Let's play nicely please. One thread was closed, and this will go the same way if it descends into ranting and abuse like the last one.

                  Personally, I disagree with Rpr's stance, but I live in a different world to him. I can't rationalise my beliefs in his world, and have long since given up trying.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Claiming that guns are just "tools" is merely playing with words; a bit like saying "Lawnmowers don't cut grass, people do" By the same logic, I guess people would have no problem letting small kids have knives, or the mentally ill have poison, because those things are just "tools" too, and you shouldn't restrict them just because they might be misused.
                    Terms & Conditions Apply.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Mayor Andrew Ginther appeared to choke up as he called for the community to come together to help ensure children remain safe. He questioned why an eighth-grader would have a replica of a police firearm.

                      There is something wrong in this country, and it is bringing its epidemic to our city streets, Ginther said. And a 13-year-old is dead in the city of Columbus because of our obsession with guns and violence....

                      ...An officer responding to a reported armed robbery shot and killed a 13-year-old boy during a chase when the teen pulled from his waistband a BB gun that looked practically identical to a police weapon, authorities said Thursday.

                      Because the officer was white and the boy black, the case has brought inevitable comparisons with the 2014 fatal shooting in Cleveland of 12-year-old Tamir Rice. Columbus police are early in their investigation but say the differences in the Wednesday night shooting of Tyree King and the Cleveland case are stark.

                      The only thing similar in nature is the age, race and outcome, said Columbus police spokesman Sgt. Rich Weiner. The facts are not similar, and that must be reiterated.

                      Officers investigating the armed robbery report on Wednesday spotted three males east of downtown Columbus who matched the description of the suspects, authorities said. Two of them ran away when officers tried to speak with them.

                      The police chased the pair into a nearby alley and tried to take them into custody. Thats when Tyree pulled out a gun, and one officer fired his weapon, hitting the boy repeatedly, police said.

                      Tyree died at a childrens hospital. Authorities identified the officer who fired as a nine-year veteran of the force named Bryan Mason.

                      At a news conference Thursday, Police Chief Kim Jacobs displayed a photo of what she called a replica of the BB gun that Tyree had.

                      Our officers carry a gun that looks practically identical to this weapon, she said. As you can see, it looks like a firearm that could kill you.

                      http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle31894549/
                      Cannot fault the police officer - if the guns were practically identical what else could he do?
                      But why are 'BB' guns made to look that realistic?
                      My eldest son - against my wishes and best judgement - bought himself one which looked like some sort of pistol, but the upper bodywork and gun barrel was painted bright orange. He wanted to over paint the weapon because that is what his mates have done; apparently one of them has an M16 replica which originally had large areas of orange has been resprayed with disruptive camouflage over the orange, with orange bits that weren't over painted being toned down - sheer stupidity. But you can't forbid a 19 year old from anything easily; luckily he ran out of BBs and soon swapped his gun for a '150(!) top of the range skateboard', which he managed to snap about a month later...
                      But the fact is that the police would have difficulty deciding whether it was a real weapon or a fake, and any movement seen as threatening would result in death.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by snafu View Post
                        But why are 'BB' guns made to look that realistic?
                        Because the more realistic a replica looks and feels the more it enhances the experience the purchaser is looking to achieve by owning it; even to the extent of getting oneself shot-at, and killed, apparently.
                        WA$.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          It was essentially a rhetorical question - they are made to look realistic so that they give their owner/handler the sort of sensation they'd hope to get from having a real weapon in their hand but without the opportunity for death when they pull the trigger. And they do, all the bloody time. 'Pick your pellets up,' I'd say, only to the response 'there's too many of them...'

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by snafu View Post
                            But why are 'BB' guns made to look that realistic?
                            .
                            Increased sales.
                            Some BB guns that could actually be called lethal, do not resemble any other gun.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by RpR View Post
                              There has been a problem with the way law officers are trained for long, long, long time.
                              In an earlier part of my life I was involved with the training of UK Police armed response personnel.

                              About 5-10% of the training involved accuracy. It's not a great prerequisite when the average engagement distance is 25m or less (I forget the actual figure so apologies for putting in a spurious number just to emphasise that we aren't talking about 'marksmen' here)

                              The remainder of the training is all about the shoot/no shoot decision. Re-qualification is a regular requirement. It was every 21 days for the RUC, one of Britain's only two, 100%-armed police forces.

                              And still they make mistakes on a regular basis.

                              Moggy
                              "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by RpR View Post
                                There has been a problem with the way law officers are trained for long, long, long time. The first people to tell me this were former policemen and sheriffs.
                                I'm with Ta-Nehisi Coates on this one. The police are but a symptom of a rot that runs right to the core.

                                “The truth is that the police reflect America in all of its will and fear, and whatever we might make of the country’s criminal justice policy, it cannot be said that it was imposed by a repressive minority. The abuses that have followed from these policies—the sprawling carceral state, the random detention of black people, the torture of suspects—are the product of democratic will. And so to challenge the police is to challenge the American people who send them into the ghettos armed with the same self-generated fears that compelled the people who think they are white to flee the cities and into the Dream. The problem with the police is not that they are fascist pigs but that our country is ruled by majoritarian pigs
                                Which also means that I agree with your assertion that guns are not the root of the problem, although I do think that American gun culture is more than tangentially related to the problem. At this point I'm not sure how productive "common sense" gun control measures would be. Nor am I sure that I wouldn't want to arm myself in such a situation. And frankly I'm relieved I have the leisure of not thinking about it too much. It's one hell of a mess you've got yourself into over there, that's all I can say.
                                Last edited by Rii; 22nd September 2016, 07:40.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  I was talking with eldest daughter about the protests in Charlotte, North Carolina, this afternoon and whilst investigating some questions she asked I came across this incident.

                                  West Virginia cop fired for not killing a man with an unloaded gun
                                  By Radley Balko September 12

                                  Weve tracked countless cases here where cops were able to keep their jobs after killing unarmed people, killing people after responding to the wrong house, killing people and then lying about it . . . the list goes on.

                                  Give the Weirton, W.Va., police chief some credit. Hes come up with a new spin on the the same problem. He just fired a cop for not killing someone.

                                  From the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette:

                                  After responding to a report of a domestic incident on May 6 in Weirton, W.Va., then-Weirton police officer Stephen Mader found himself confronting an armed man.

                                  Immediately, the training he had undergone as a Marine to look at the whole person in deciding if someone was a terrorist, as well as his situational police academy training, kicked in and he did not shoot.

                                  I saw then he had a gun, but it was not pointed at me, Mr. Mader recalled, noting the silver handgun was in the mans right hand, hanging at his side and pointed at the ground.

                                  Mr. Mader, who was standing behind Mr. Williams car parked on the street, said he then began to use my calm voice.

                                  I told him, Put down the gun, and hes like, Just shoot me. And I told him, Im not going to shoot you brother. Then he starts flicking his wrist to get me to react to it.

                                  I thought I was going to be able to talk to him and deescalate it. I knew it was a suicide-by-cop situation.

                                  Mader was responding to a 911 call from Williamss girlfriend. In that call, she told police that Williams was threatening to kill himself, not anyone else.

                                  What Mader did upon arriving at the scene is a hell of a lot braver course of action than simply opening fire when the suspect doesnt immediately disarm. What Mader did is in fact exactly what we want cops to do when someone is in crisis. Its also precisely what law enforcement officers say they do on a daily basis put themselves at risk in order to save lives. Mader should have been given a medal. Unfortunately, two more cops then showed up, and quickly shot Williams dead.

                                  As it turns out, Williamss gun wasnt loaded. Theres no way any of the police officers could have known that. But it does show that Mader had read Williams correctly he wasnt actually a threat to anyone but himself. His life could have been saved.

                                  The Weirton police department then refused to name Williams for three days and assigned an investigator to look into the shooting . . . who then promptly left for a weeklong vacation. Then came the punchline.

                                  Mr. Mader speaking publicly about this case for the first time said that when he tried to return to work on May 17, following normal protocol for taking time off after an officer-involved shooting, he was told to go see Weirton Police Chief Rob Alexander.

                                  In a meeting with the chief and City Manager Travis Blosser, Mr. Mader said Chief Alexander told him: Were putting you on administrative leave and were going to do an investigation to see if you are going to be an officer here. You put two other officers in danger.

                                  Mr. Mader said that right then I said to him: Look, I didnt shoot him because he said, Just shoot me.

                                  On June 7, a Weirton officer delivered him a notice of termination letter dated June 6, which said by not shooting Mr. Williams he failed to eliminate a threat.

                                  http://www.post-gazette.com/local/re...s/201609090080
                                  The city mentioned two other incidents in firing Mader, but it seems clear that his failure to kill Williams was the motivation for his termination. Even the rare cop who gets fired often gets to keep his pension. Mader wont be getting one.

                                  After he received his termination notice, Mr. Mader sought attorneys to help him fight the city. He was told because he was still a probationary employee in an at-will state, he could be fired for any reason and there was no point in fighting the city.

                                  One attorney told him the best he could hope for was to ask to resign instead of being terminated.

                                  But I told [the attorney] Look, I dont want to admit guilt. Ill take the termination instead of the resignation because I didnt do anything wrong, Mr. Mader said. To resign and admit I did something wrong here would have ate at me. I think Im right in what I did. Ill take it to the grave.

                                  Over the weekend, the New York Times ran an article about the longstanding problem in which even the rare bad cops who do get fired are often able to quickly find work at another policy agency. Mader, who served a tour in Afghanistan and has two sons under five-years-old, told the Post-Gazette that hes now studying for a commercial truck driving license, but hed consider another job in law enforcement if he were offered one. I hope that happens. I hope hes given the same second chance that corrupt, trigger-happy cops are given. My hunch is that hell be driving trucks.

                                  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-unloaded-gun/
                                  Suffice to say the man was black.

                                  The two other incidents mentioned when the officer was fired are mentioned in the original story:

                                  The notice of termination included two other incidents in which the city believed Mr. Mader acted improperly: An incident in April where neither he nor two other more experienced officers - the same two who were involved in the Williams case - reported as suspicious the death of an elderly woman who appeared to have had a stroke and fallen in her home, though no one has been charged in her death; and an incident in March when a woman complained that Mr. Mader was rude and swore at her when she asked why her husband was being arrested for disorderly conduct over receiving a parking ticket.

                                  http://www.post-gazette.com/local/re...s/201609090080
                                  Mader claims he was not questioned about either event or given an opportunity to clarify his position, believing that these incidents were used to cover for the other two officers who were involved in the shooting, so as to not need to admit that their actions were wrong and the almost certain lawsuits that would follow. Mader was a probationer and therefore easier to drop.

                                  Additionally, Mader was fired 6 June, received notice of the termination 7 June when it was delivered to his home by another officer, yet his chief told a press conference on 8 June that all three officers involved in the shooting were 'back at work and doing fine'!

                                  Further, the deceased man's family are not happy. Various reports gave the number of shots fired as as few as one and as many as four; the killing shot was found by the independent pathologist they hired to have been fired downwards, behind his right ear, yet the police reports did not indicate how this could be. A full week after the press conference that lied about all three officers working and doing fine, the deceased's family were given the same information - eight days after Mader was fired.




                                  But the prospect is, the real danger is, that this will inform other police officers that if you see a gun, you shoot, or you are out of a job.
                                  Rather than sizing up the situation, as Mader with his marine training did, the police chief wants unthinking drones to resolve - monkey see, monkey do.
                                  And they are protected since they are rarely subject to investigation, let alone prosecution.

                                  Does this worry you, America? It will worry the rest of the world.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Black it looks like Trump was right in keeping the *removed by moderator* out.
                                    Nice big wall all around the USA?
                                    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37460461
                                    Last edited by frankvw; 24th September 2016, 20:46. Reason: No racial slurs!
                                    I have kleptomania,But when it gets bad
                                    I take something for it.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Yes, that's the solution; build a big wall around the USA and throw out any racial group that has shot anybody...

                                      ...so, out go the African-Americans, the Hispanics, the Arabs and the Native-Americans (Custer's Last Stand)...

                                      ...only white people would be left.....because they've never shot anybody!
                                      WA$.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Well they could have a battle between each other. Now where is that Mason Dixie line again?
                                        I have kleptomania,But when it gets bad
                                        I take something for it.

                                        Comment


                                         

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