Truth, lies and reality

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Douglas Murray joined the Social Affairs Unit as a regular contributor in 2004. In 2005, the Unit published his book, Neoconservatism: Why We Need It, which argued for the introduction of neoconservative ideas into British politics.

In October that year, he outlined his philosophy in a talk to the Manhattan Institute

The practice of equivalence in our national politics leads governments not to listen to, but to fear minority opinion, concerned lest anyone get the impression that the government knows what's right for the majority who have elected it. Not only does it make politics a glorified (though not glorious) pursuit of the personal – it makes the notion of fixed or natural right a nonsense. Because of course if everything is equal then everything is right: which means nothing is good or true.
This straw man attack on the idea of equal rights may owe something to the authoritarian philosopher Leo Strauss, of whom Murray is a professed admirer. For Strauss, 'natural right' meant the right of the superior to dominate the inferior.

Murray went on to present a picture of Europe on the verge of being outbred by Muslims, a common neoconservative trope:

Europe has used up its peace dividend. The holiday from reality it had for half a century during which it spent money on welfare whilst America protected its security, is now over – comprehensively so. Europe not only has unsustainable demographic issues which – if un-addressed - will eradicate the continent as we know it within three or four generations. It also has security issues, not least those associated with its un-ameliorated populations and its increasingly inefficient armies.

Murray developed this idea further in a February 2006 speech to the Pim Fortuyn Memorial Conference on Europe and Islam, which embraced Bat Ye'or’s concept of Dhimmitude:

It is late in the day, but Europe still has time to turn around the demographic time-bomb which will soon see a number of our largest cities fall to Muslim majorities. It has to. All immigration into Europe from Muslim countries must stop. In the case of a further genocide such as that in the Balkans, sanctuary would be given on a strictly temporary basis. This should also be enacted retrospectively… Conditions for Muslims in Europe must be made harder across the board: Europe must look like a less attractive proposition.

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14 years 5 months

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Demographic arguments accepted, I am not sure that the last paragraph about 'retrospective application' isn't a call for religious persecution. Should I tell my mate Derek's elderly muslim parents that 'conditions must be made harder for them across the board' - or will you?

They have lived in Cheshunt, Hertfordshire, all their lives, and as far as I know are good people. What do you suggest should be done to them for being muslim?

Treating people worse than other citizens solely based on their religion, as some kind of 'necessary' executive action.. not great.

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18 years 2 months

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Hi Matt.

"Treating people worse than other citizens solely based on their religion, as some kind of 'necessary' executive action.. not great."

I agree totally, below is a list of the worlds 10 countries that are the most anti-Semitic...

Spot the common denominator

1. West Bank and Gaza
2. Iraq
3. Yemen
4. Algeria
5. Libya
6. Tunisia
7. Kuwait
8. Bahrain
9. Jordan
10. Morocco/Qatar

.
French Jews are fleeing the country at an unprecedented rate amid rising anti-Semitism and fears of more Isis-inspired assaults and mass casualty terror attacks.

More than 8,000 Jews left France for Israel in 2015 – a rate far higher than anywhere else in Europe but consistent with what over the past few years has become the largest mass movement of Jews since the formation of Israel in 1948.

The overriding reason Jews cite for leaving France as a steady rise in the rate of anti-Semitism over the past 15 years. A 2013 EU poll found that 74% of French Jews are now so scared of being attacked for their religion that take steps to prevent themselves being identified as Jewish.

The rise of Muslim migration to France and Isis' calls for an increase in “lone wolf” style attacks on Jewish citizens in particular has only added to the fear. As a result the number of Jews leaving France for Israel has doubled and then doubled again since 2010 - hitting 8,000 last year up from 1,900 in 2011

In comparison Britain has the second highest number of Jews leaving for Israel but the figures are still one tenth lower than France with just 774 departures last year.

The news comes as it was revealed that Jewish people no longer feel safe living in Germany thanks to a combination of extreme right-wing forces, deteriorating security, and Germany welcoming of refugees brought up in cultures "steeped in hatred" for Jews were resulting in anti-Semitism.

I posted this the other day, about the Christian community in the Middle East facing extinction.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?139486-The-End-of-Christians-in-the-Middle-East

177 views and not one comment.

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I've no arguments with the facts, Stu :)

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14 years 5 months

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That Murray seems confused though. He seems to think that Europe's membership of NATO has somehow 'protected' us from Islamism. Something of a history re-write, the stationing of US nuclear weapons in front line Europe to ensure hypothetical mutually assured destruction with Russia is now, through his tea party filter, the US paying for us to live in a 'holiday from reality' and our welfare state, something that he seems to then blame for the rise of Islam. He gets paid for this stuff?

The money that flowed out of the UK for 60 years to pay at usury rates for the 'aid' given by the US in WWII, and the extraordinary expectation of supplication to accompany this, has become, in his eyes, a 'Peace Dividend'. After thus telling his audience that black is white, war is peace and fairness is unfair he then uses these points to justify persecution of a religious minority within Europe.

What a charming individual.

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Let me just get this right Stu......you are saying that its appropriate to put forward an anti-Islamic message because the Muslims are anti-Semitic?.

You dont see a logical disconnect there at all?.

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24 years 2 months

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The problem, again, is that this isn't truth, lies or reality. Stu, you are posting more opinion that happens to chime with your own beliefs. Solid evidence is required to back that up, and there isn't any here.

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Bruce, let me address you as someone who is less of an 'ostrich ' than others who contribute to this subject. If we ignore the downright lies , the obfuscation and the " I frequently exaggerate because it súits my argument" school of debate, then we are left with almost daily disturbing reports from the media, that creates a distinct impression that all is not well either in this country or in Europe.

To make my point a little clearer; an Islamic gentleman to-day appeared in Court accused of murdering a fellow Muslim - a shopkeeper well respected in his locality. The killer was found guilty and sentenced to 27 years clink. The killer is alleged to have shouted the fairly standard 'God is Great' in his native language and as he turned to leave the dock his supporters and family members shouted the same message at the judge and jury thus clearly demonstrating a contempt for British jurisprudence that was shocking in its intensity.

I don't know about you and the other 'ostriches' but, I can't imagine that scene taking place in an Islamic Court with an accused Christian killer in the dock demonstrating the same contempt. Anyway, all that is the lesser point.

The information coming from various parts of Europe and gratefully, to a lesser extent from this country, is that numbers of people belonging to an aggressive, evangelising faith system are engaged in inflicting maximum physical harm to numbers of their fellow citizens for reasons that are known to be connected with religious and racial hatred. The numbers and the continuity of these acts make that statement obvious.

Why then, are so many on this forum and in public life generally, so seemingly anxious to play down the actual and potential enormity of these terrorist acts ?

There is a well known precedent for the matters described. During the 1930's the political situation in Germany betokened certain similarities. Altho' the order of magnitude was eventually several times greater than that under discussion, nevertheless, the 'ostrich' brigade loomed large, making lots of soothing noises but, doing nothing - apart from Churchill.

Unrestricted immigration - pace Mutti Merkel and her unthinking supporters, is introducing a problem for Europe and possibly ourselves, which has no solution. There is every chance that our unthinking politicians have created a problem for future generations that will cause so much distress throughout all the countries affected by this highly charged and aggressive ideology as to make all previous conflicts seem like a picnic.

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No, nonono no. Spanish only, please.

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It's real and unpleasant. But asking folks not to stir up further hatred and resentment in an already precarious situation is not being an ostrich.

There are parallels with the 1930's, but also glaring differences. Churchill did not propose the demonisation of a British minority in response to the rise of Fascism.

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John,

I am no Ostrich, but if we consider only the crimes committed by Muslims, we will of course have a skewed version of events. It is very important that we keep an eye on the whole picture, not obsess about a small part of it. There are plenty of crimes committed by those who may identify as Christian, those who identify as having no religion, and probably a few committed by those faithful to the church of the flying spaghetti monster. It is important to retain a sense of perspective, and especially important to watch for propaganda from organisations, including the media who have their own self interest at heart.

Yes, there have, of late been a number of hate crimes perpetrated in the west by Muslims. Some claim allegiance to ISIL, some claim to be doing it off their own backs. I get that. My point is that continual posting of the opinion of others doesn't count as evidence.

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24 years 2 months

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Am massively amused. Here we have a man who is offended by exaggeration if the comment

"....and the " I frequently exaggerate because it súits my argument" school of debate"

....is any indication. Yet, suddenly, the massed ranks of a courts public gallery in the north west is, in his view, indicative of the attitude of the entire muslim population of the UK and the actions of a dozen or so individuals across the continent of Europe defines the prevailing behavioral patterns of all of them over there!.

Exaggeration....nah not for a minute.

Seems he didn't get Stu's memo that the justification for anti-Islamic sentiment is antisemitism this week...must be on account of his holiday!.

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"Solid evidence is required to back that up, and there isn't any here."

There is now.

The continuing decline of Europe’s Jewish population

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/02/09/europes-jewish-population/

Fear on Rise, Jews in France Weigh an Exit

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/13/world/europe/fear-on-rise-jews-in-france-weigh-an-exit.html?_r=0

UK anti-Semitism hit record level in 2014, report says

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31140919

"The report said the increase was most marked in London - where the number of incidents rose by 137% to 583 - and in Greater Manchester, where the number rose by 79% to 309."

Prison Population Statistics

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04334/SN04334.pdf

England & Wales.

At the end of March 2016 just under half of the prison population was of a Christian faith – a decrease of 9 percentage points compared to June 2002. The proportion of Muslim prisoners has increased from 8% in 2002 to 15% in 2016. The proportion of prisoners with no religion in 2016 (31.4%) was down 0.6 of a percentage point compared to 2002.

Scotland.

The proportion of Muslims among the prison population was greater than the rate among the general population. According to the 2011 Census Muslims accounted for around 1.2% of the Scottish population aged 15 and over, however, in prison the rate was over double at 2.5%. Aside from the “other” grouping, no other religion had a higher rate of representation in prisons than among the general population.

Muslims and Islam: Key findings in the U.S. and around the world

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/

Globally, Muslims have the highest fertility rate, an average of 3.1 children per woman – well above replacement level (2.1), the minimum typically needed to maintain a stable population. Christians are second, at 2.7 children per woman. Hindu fertility (2.4) is similar to the global average (2.5). Worldwide, Jewish fertility (2.3 children per woman) also is above replacement level. All the other groups have fertility levels too low to sustain their populations: folk religions (1.8 children per woman), other religions (1.7), the unaffiliated (1.7) and Buddhists (1.6).

In 2010, more than a quarter of the world’s total population (27%) was under the age of 15. But an even higher percentage of Muslims (34%) and Hindus (30%) were younger than 15, while the share of Christians under 15 matched the global average (27%). These bulging youth populations are among the reasons that Muslims are projected to grow faster than the world’s overall population and that Hindus and Christians are projected to roughly keep pace with worldwide population growth.

Well come back John

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Thank you Stu - much more informative.

I will have a read when I get a minute.

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18 years 2 months

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Hi Bruce.

My pleasure.

Stu.

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12 years 11 months

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You're not on top of your brief my boy ! I wasn't replying to MBS. I was, as you well know, remarking on the ability of all the denyers to maintain an air of "Who ! What ! Me guv ?" "I dunno whats goin' on" when the evidence is all around them.

Individual acts, insignificant as they maybe, if repeated, together form a whole picture and give the observer a pointer as to the likely direction and destination of said acts.

Your stance of refusing to acknowledge the evidence of your eyes and ears is as much of an exaggeration as anything.

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Individual acts, insignificant as they maybe, if repeated, together form a whole picture and give the observer a pointer as to the likely direction and destination of said acts.

So the individual acts of, across Europe, several million muslims going to work, paying their taxes, doing the normal day-to-day stuff thats not a pointer to anything?. Just the ones that are radicalised....they're the only ones that we count eh John?.

Good logic.

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Some form of desperation impels you to muster some silly arguments. I'm not indicting the majority, again, as you well know - hence your exaggerated argument of the type referred to above. The reference is to the increasing number of individual commissions of terror committed across the globe and all, apparently, in the name of Allah.

I hope that it isn't beyond your intellectual capacity to discern a pattern, a trend, a common thread linking all and resulting in a clear impression that many of us can be considered a target by a determined and intransigent bunch of fanatics, albeit a minority, at the moment. It seems to me and maybe one or two others on this forum that you and your supporters are clearly in denial for reasons of which we can only guess.

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Ahhh ok so you are condemning muslims....but not condemning muslims. Thats a lot clearer now John thanks for taking the time to clarify.

The problem is that you are NOT selective in your arguments. You do not make it clear that you are 'only talking about the bad muslims' not least because thats an absurd standpoint....you're not railing against muslims you are railing against psychotics who happen to call themselves muslims....you need to get this through your head.

Its no different than the knuckle dragging halfwits interviewed after the Brexit vote who were kicking off about 'bloody foreigners' and when pointed out they were leaving an Indian restaurant retorted 'well we dont mean them foreigners...just the bad ones on the scrounge like'. Its a moronic stance any way you cut it.

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The theme of my comments is your apparent refusal and that of your co-conspirators (there now, you've got me at it ) to clearly acknowledge that there is a problem and a large one to boot. As much by your own admission as anything, it is clear to me that you need time to digest and understand simple statements and for you I will always take time to clarify. Simple statements should be just that and should lack any opacity; that, is what I need to get thru' my head !

Are you by chance, either or both a product of a polytechnic and trades union employment ?

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Try this with Google or YouTube, type 'Jews in France' and see what come up, then try it again with 'Christians' finally try it with 'Muslims'

Do the same again but change the country, surprising results...