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  • John Green
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Mar 2011
    • 6643

    50 shot dead in Florida

    Do we yet get the message? Fifty people have been shot dead in a Florida 'gay' nightclub by an allegedly radicalised Moslem. In addition, ISIL has claimed responsibility.
  • critter592
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Sep 2006
    • 670

    #2
    Your point is?

    There are quite a few groups that hate us (Google is your friend here), and would have the inclination (and the means) to carry out such an attack.
    You failed to mention that there were hundreds of Muslims (note the correct spelling), queueing to give blood. Muslims that were also horrified by the attack.
    Muslims that were fasting for Ramadan.

    Incidentally, gay men are prohibited by law from donating blood in Florida.
    Midlands Air Crash Research

    "Lest We Forget"

    Comment

    • Rii
      Rii
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2010
      • 3449

      #3
      Anyone who has been fasting probably wouldn't be permitted to donate blood, though maybe they waive the usual requirements for mass casualty incidents like this one.

      If Florida is anything like Australia the prohibition isn't on gay men donating blood but on men who have had sex with men in the past 12 months. A subtle but meaningful distinction.

      Comment

      • Meddle
        Rank Bajin.
        • Sep 2014
        • 1626

        #4
        Originally posted by John Green View Post
        Do we yet get the message? Fifty people have been shot dead in a Florida 'gay' nightclub by an allegedly radicalised Moslem.
        Are you condoning or endorsing the actions of this "Moslem"? Given some of your views on here I really cannot tell!

        Comment

        • Creaking Door
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Sep 2006
          • 9863

          #5
          ******* GREAT! That pretty much ensures TRUMP will be the next US President then!

          Anybody care to guess how long it will take Donald Trump to start scoring political points from this tragedy?

          http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-...ion-of-orlando

          Well, after checking.....pretty much instantly! ******* UNBELIEVABLE!


          I fear for the future of the free world.
          Last edited by Creaking Door; 13th June 2016, 08:16.
          WA$.

          Comment

          • Creaking Door
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Sep 2006
            • 9863

            #6
            Quote from shooter's father (I think):

            "...the punishment for being gay is down to God alone..."

            (BBC Victoria Derbyshire Show: I'll check that source and post a link as soon as I can confirm it.)

            Is it just me or did the shooter's father just practically condone this terrible crime?
            WA$.

            Comment

            • Rii
              Rii
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2010
              • 3449

              #7
              If believing that homosexuality is a sin that will be punished by God is "practically condoning" the crime then you could say the same of tens of millions of christians in the United States alone.

              Comment

              • djcross
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jan 2000
                • 5456

                #8
                America's Bataclan

                Comment

                • Creaking Door
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 9863

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Rii View Post
                  If believing that homosexuality is a sin that will be punished by God is "practically condoning" the crime then you could say the same of tens of millions of christians in the United States alone.
                  Quite correct. My statement wasn't intended as any criticism of any particular religion...

                  ...and I'm surprised you interpreted it that way.....if indeed you did; I'm not sure.

                  I didn't say the shooter's Muslim father; I said the shooter's father! A few years ago there was a bomb-attack on a 'gay' pub in London; the bomber was, if I remember correctly, a white Christian (?) male. I don't remember the British press making much of a fuss about his religion...

                  ...I'll try and post more information on this later.

                  Direct question: do you believe that homosexuality is a sin that will be punished by God?
                  Last edited by Creaking Door; 13th June 2016, 15:31.
                  WA$.

                  Comment

                  • Rii
                    Rii
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2010
                    • 3449

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Creaking Door View Post
                    Quite correct. My statement wasn't intended as any criticism of any particular religion...
                    ...and I'm surprised you interpreted it that way.....if indeed you did; I'm not sure.
                    Direct question: do believe that homosexuality is a sin that will be punished by God?
                    I don't think the words you quoted suggest that he condones his son's actions, rather he is saying that his son usurped God's role of judging and punishing sinners.

                    My point was that if tens of millions of other Americans agree with what the killer's father said -- which they do -- then it hardly seems worth remarking upon.

                    I'm an atheist and have no problem with homosexuality.

                    On another note I do find it ironic that the widespread cultural distaste for radical Islam is likely to accelerate the integration of homosexuality into mainstream society, in the same way that fighting the Nazis accelerated the evolution of race relations in western societies.
                    Last edited by Rii; 13th June 2016, 12:12.

                    Comment

                    • snafu
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2013
                      • 2825

                      #11
                      Originally posted by John Green View Post
                      Do we yet get the message?
                      Maybe we haven't had it delivered yet - you know what the post can be like...

                      Originally posted by Creaking Door View Post
                      Quote from shooter's father (I think):

                      "...the punishment for being gay is down to God alone..."

                      (BBC Victoria Derbyshire Show: I'll check that source and post a link as soon as I can confirm it.)

                      Is it just me or did the shooter's father just practically condone this terrible crime?
                      Think it is you. Of course we didn't get what was being said before and after that statement, but based on what you have put I would say the father was condemning his son for jumping in first.

                      Originally posted by Creaking Door View Post
                      Direct question: do believe that homosexuality is a sin that will be punished by God?
                      You seem to be missing a word here...unless you are actually making more of a statement rather than question.
                      Last edited by snafu; 13th June 2016, 20:28. Reason: ruddy extra letter removed

                      Comment

                      • Creaking Door
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Sep 2006
                        • 9863

                        #12
                        Originally posted by snafu View Post
                        Think it is you. Of course we didn't get what was being said before sand after that statement, but based on what you have put I would say the father was condemning his son for jumping in first.

                        You seem to be missing a word here...unless you are actually making more of a statement rather than question.
                        Yes, thanks, I am missing a word (corrected now).....shouldn't post after a long weekend with little sleep!

                        OK, let's try shortening the quote: "...the punishment for being gay..."?

                        I will try to track-down the actual interview clip but there is no way that you can add or subtract anything from that statement and not make it completely homophobic...

                        ...let's try changing the subject: "...the punishment for being black should be down to God alone..."

                        ...see what I mean now?

                        There is NO context where being gay should be punished...

                        ...being gay is not a crime!
                        Last edited by Creaking Door; 13th June 2016, 15:39.
                        WA$.

                        Comment

                        • Rii
                          Rii
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2010
                          • 3449

                          #13
                          Of course the statement is "completely homophobic" -- that doesn't translate to "practically condoning" the massacre. The punishment he is referring to is that handed out by Allah. Lots of people believe in the Abrahamic God, and many of those people believe that homosexuality is a sin and that "practicing homosexuals" will be judged and punished by God. It's a distasteful belief structure, but hardly an uncommon one in the good ol' US of A.
                          Last edited by Rii; 13th June 2016, 16:30.

                          Comment

                          • snafu
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2013
                            • 2825

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Creaking Door View Post
                            Yes, thanks, I am missing a word (corrected now).....shouldn't post after a long weekend with little sleep!

                            OK, let's try shortening the quote: "...the punishment for being gay..."?

                            I will try to track-down the actual interview clip but there is no way that you can add or subtract anything from that statement and not make it completely homophobic...

                            ...let's try changing the subject: "...the punishment for being black should be down to God alone..."

                            ...see what I mean now?

                            There is NO context where being gay should be punished...

                            ...being gay is not a crime!
                            Being anything regarded as not your own fault (original hair colour, mental or physical disability, etc) or a personal choice which does not affect or harm another person shouldn't be a crime.
                            And if you want to change the context again, try making the subject of that quote 'women' - who already suffer under the beneficent will of 'god' (under the guise of those who make these things up to see just how far they can go in convincing others that they are talked to by some apparently omnipotent deity whilst burning witches and unfortunates with psychiatric problems).

                            Originally posted by Rii View Post
                            It's a distasteful belief structure, but hardly an uncommon one in the good ol' US of A.
                            They cherry pick what they want to believe from their bible - it being very favourable to fiddling with kids, incest, homosexuality, bestiality, murder, etc.

                            Comment

                            • Creaking Door
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Sep 2006
                              • 9863

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Rii View Post
                              Of course the statement is "completely homophobic" -- that doesn't translate to "practically condoning" the massacre.
                              Well, here is the video I was referring to.....I will let people decide for themselves:

                              http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36515029

                              The shooter's father didn't know what caused his son to do this? Or why he had hatred in his heart? Seriously?

                              Well, here is my guess.....his religion preaches homosexuality should be punished...

                              ...and that he would be rewarded, in heaven, for doing his God's work...

                              ...and he was a bit gullible...

                              ...and he had a gun.

                              You do the math!
                              Last edited by Creaking Door; 14th June 2016, 00:44.
                              WA$.

                              Comment

                              • snafu
                                Senior Member
                                • Aug 2013
                                • 2825

                                #16
                                And...he was a regular visitor to the nightclub...

                                The gunman who killed 49 people in an attack on a gay nightclub in Orlando is said to have been a regular at the venue and had messaged several people on gay dating apps, according to reports.

                                An unnamed FBI official told the Associated Press on Tuesday that the bureau was investigating the claims.

                                At least four regular customers said they had seen killer Omar Mateen drinking at the nightclub on multiple occasions. “Sometimes he would go over in the corner and sit and drink by himself, and other times he would get so drunk he was loud and belligerent,” Ty Smith told the Orlando Sentinel.

                                “We didn’t really talk to him a lot, but I remember him saying things about his dad at times,” Smith said. “He told us he had a wife and child.”

                                Jim Van Horn, 71, told the Associated Press Mateen was a “regular” at the Pulse nightclub where the murders took place. “He was trying to pick up people. Men,” he said. “He was a homosexual and he was trying to pick up men. He would walk up to them and then he would maybe put his arm round them or something ... That’s what people do at gay bars. That’s what we do.”

                                Asked what went through his mind when he saw his picture, Van Horn, who lost three friends in the shooting, said: “We just went, ‘Oh. That makes sense. That’s Omar.’”

                                He added: “I think it’s possible that he was trying to deal with his inner demons, of trying to get rid of his anger of homosexuality. It’s really confusing to me. Because you can’t change who you are. But if you pretend that you’re different, then you may shoot up a gay bar.”

                                Asked by the Guardian about rumours his son was gay, Mateen’s father Seddique Mateen said: “It’s not true. Why, if he was gay, would he do this?”

                                http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...-at-nightclub?
                                Inner demons, ah yes, inner demons and guns: what a combination.

                                Comment

                                • Rii
                                  Rii
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Oct 2010
                                  • 3449

                                  #17
                                  ^ Indeed, this adds another layer to the tragedy.

                                  One positive consequence of these latest revelations is that they render all attempts by right-wingers to erase the anti-LGBT character of the massacre moot.

                                  Originally posted by Creaking Door View Post
                                  Well, here is the video I was referring to.....I will let people decide for themselves:

                                  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36515029
                                  I don't see how you could describe this as "practically condoning" the massacre. Nor am I even sure what point you're trying to drive at, to be honest.

                                  Comment

                                  • John Green
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Mar 2011
                                    • 6643

                                    #18
                                    Purely as a matter of commonsense, doesn't this tragic matter make it incumbent upon the homosexual 'community' to adopt a lower profile ?

                                    Comment

                                    • snafu
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Aug 2013
                                      • 2825

                                      #19
                                      In the same way French police officers should?

                                      Comment

                                      • John Green
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Mar 2011
                                        • 6643

                                        #20
                                        Not got the first time or probably the last, you have me baffled. I never suspected that the French police were homosexual.

                                        Comment

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