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Possible EU Exit – What Impact On Historic Aviation?

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  • TwinOtter23
    NAM volunteer-Plugmeister
    • Jan 2006
    • 7761

    Possible EU Exit – What Impact On Historic Aviation?

    Earlier this weekend I was looking at some of the paperwork / notes concerning the import of the SAAB Safir and SAAB Draken to NAM in 1982 and it got me thinking!

    These two aircraft movements and their associated paperwork were much more complicated than that encountered for the SAAB Viggen in 2006, when Sweden was then a member of the EU.

    Would a possible exit from the EU have an impact on the movement of airframes and potentially aviation goods sold at, or purchased from Aeroboots / Aerojumbles?

    Likewise might E**Y sales also be impacted?

    There are precedents for this; like the original acquisition plans for the USAF lend lease airframes from Europe in the 1970s and the associated tax implications that NAM challenged through both Houses of Parliament.

    Not intending this to become political, merely pondering!
    Find out what's happening at newarkairmuseum.org
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  • mmitch
    Member
    • Mar 2003
    • 1750

    #2
    I believe the EU decides on what VAT is charged on ( not the rate.). They have talked about putting it on children's clothes for example.
    mmitch.

    Comment

    • snafu352
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jan 2008
      • 2250

      #3
      That'll be the European Parliament elected by the people of Europe just for clarity.
      Last edited by Peter; 5th April 2016, 00:32.
      The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
      Bertrand Russell

      Comment

      • charliehunt
        Nearly there!
        • Oct 2012
        • 11459

        #4
        Which, lacking the right of legislative initiative dilutes it's democratic legitimacy. Just for clarity.
        Charlie

        Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

        Comment

        • avion ancien
          Long ago and far away ...
          • Aug 2007
          • 5308

          #5
          Yawn. The last two posts suggest that it's not long before this thread is redirected to General discussion!

          Comment

          • TwinOtter23
            NAM volunteer-Plugmeister
            • Jan 2006
            • 7761

            #6
            My OP was based on some genuine thoughts on the possible implications of what an exit might have on the movement of aviation goods.

            Last autumn I arranged the movement of some aviation items, which also reminded me of the complexities of working outside the EU. That experience was mentioned in another thread about these parts (cannot find it, despite extensive searches) that related to starting a consolidation scheme for historic aviation items. Ive requoted one of my posts to try and get us back on track!

            This sounds like a great idea and I wish you well. However having recently co-ordinated the importation of a set of mixed aviation items from the Southern hemisphere into the UK, I suspect that the idea might be a little more complex than envisaged.

            For example different items attract import duties at different rates, while some may be exempt. A similar situation exists between airworthy items and non-airworthy items; IIRC even between helicopter and general aviation parts.

            Likewise some items attract VAT, while others dont. These issues can be difficult to sort out even within a shipment from one consignee, let alone from different consignees.

            Similarly who would allocate / decide who picked up the VAT portion of the cost?

            From a customs perspective the consignee is responsible for identifying and applying the Commodity Coding to the goods and this could be difficult with mixed-items, e.g. if one item was mistakenly identified could the whole shipment be impounded? If so who would be responsible for sorting out the issues?

            These types of issue are day to day issues with a good freight forwarding company, who can use their knowledge and expertise to guide you through what can be quite a maze of paperwork and regulation.

            All that said good luck with trying to set up a scheme.
            Find out what's happening at newarkairmuseum.org
            Please help move Chinook ZA717 to Newark Air Museum

            Comment

            • charliehunt
              Nearly there!
              • Oct 2012
              • 11459

              #7
              Yawn all you like AA but there is no way you can detach the debate on the OP's question from the politics of it.

              In truth of course no one can possibly begin to answer the question since we have no idea what will be negotiated with the EU and others should we vote to leave. The government has no contingency for what happens following a no vote. The departure negotiations will take many months and it would be nearer to a couple of years before we were actually separated. Then TO, you will have an answer to your question.
              Charlie

              Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

              Comment

              • Vampirefan
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Sep 2011
                • 171

                #8
                We've imported a great deal of aeroplane parts (and airframes as well) from mainland Europe and the ability to simply conclude the deal and turn up at the port without any requirement for completing reams of paperwork, justifying one’s self or paying importation duty is testament to the fact that while the EU may still have issues that have to be worked out (but then so do most national sovereign governments), the system actually works well.

                Additionally, (from a non-aviation context and off-topic - sorry!) my UK registered and based business operates in Norway, the Baltic States, France, and will shortly start to operate in Sweden, all without undue red-tape. We own a home in France which we were able to achieve without any red-tape and can visit at the drop of a hat without having to ask anyone for permission.

                I can't help but believe that one’s attitude towards the EU is mainly defined by whether you can be bothered to actively get off your backside and take advantage of the benefits it offers.

                Comment

                • charliehunt
                  Nearly there!
                  • Oct 2012
                  • 11459

                  #9
                  That's an arrogant suggestion to make.

                  My business traded across Europe for nearly 50 years, I owned a house in France for nearly 20 years, I have visited most countries in Western Europe and many several times a year for very many years. I love the people's and cultures and diversity of Europe. But I strongly dislike the operation and aspiration of the EU and will be voting to leave.
                  Charlie

                  Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

                  Comment

                  • Vampirefan
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Sep 2011
                    • 171

                    #10
                    Really?

                    Arrogant? Maybe. However it is based on my experience of being able to travel freely within the EU, operate a business on a level playing field and live where I choose on the continent. I don't take this freedom lightly and those who vote to leave based on some naive belief that life outside the EU will be all nice and simple need to fully understand the issues this could very well bring and the implication on British business.

                    And if this come across as arrogant, I make no apology to you whatsoever, as it is myself, not you, who is responsible for the continued success of my business and my ability to pay my way in life. I'm sorry, but I have no time for those who want "out" - they do not pay my bills and are not responsible for the welfare of the people my business employs.

                    As I said before, the EU is far from perfect, but it will still be there is the UK votes to leave. And if you wish to trade with the EEA, EU legislation will still impact UK business to exactly the same extent. We do not stand to gain some utopian national independence – to believe that is simply foolish folly. What we stand to lose is the level playing field access one of the worlds largest markets which happens to be right on our doorstep.



                    Originally posted by charliehunt View Post
                    That's an arrogant suggestion to make.

                    My business traded across Europe for nearly 50 years, I owned a house in France for nearly 20 years, I have visited most countries in Western Europe and many several times a year for very many years. I love the people's and cultures and diversity of Europe. But I strongly dislike the operation and aspiration of the EU and will be voting to leave.
                    Last edited by Vampirefan; 15th March 2016, 11:12.

                    Comment

                    • charliehunt
                      Nearly there!
                      • Oct 2012
                      • 11459

                      #11
                      My comment was because you were making assumptions about other people and how they may or may not come to their decision. That is what was arrogant. As it happens you and I have very similar experiences of Europe and have come to quite different conclusions about the future. And I know many others with similar experience who also fall into the leave camp.

                      And neither you nor me nor anyone else has the slightest idea what our new relationship might be with the EU once we have left the "club".
                      Charlie

                      Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

                      Comment

                      • Vampirefan
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Sep 2011
                        • 171

                        #12
                        I'm afraid ignorance of the facts will sadly play a large part in the decision process of a large number of people. There will always be an element who will be swayed one way or the other without actually finding out the facts for themselves and without looking at the potential impact on their employment and other aspects of their life. Regarding the future if the UK leaves the EU - do you really think I'm prepared to entrust the future viability of my business to the likes of messers Cameron and Johnson and whatever fudged trade deals they can negotiate?

                        You mentioned that your business operated in Europe for 50 years - are you still operating in the market? Do you not have concerns that any post "out" vote negotiations will impact your business?

                        Comment

                        • Bruce
                          Independent analyst
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 10223

                          #13
                          There is a huge amount of ignorance on both sides of the argument. The very fact that a number of very wealthy media proprietors are trying to push us towards the door makes me hugely suspicious, even if nothing else did.

                          There is a very good piece by Alastair Campbell on his blog at the moment. Ignoring his obvious bias towards staying in, he makes the point about the agenda of the press rather better than I ever could:

                          http://www.alastaircampbell.org/blog...eu-referendum/


                          Right, to keep this on topic:

                          Spitfire! (for the Brexiteers)

                          Eurofighter! (for the Europhiles)



                          Bruce

                          Comment

                          • charliehunt
                            Nearly there!
                            • Oct 2012
                            • 11459

                            #14
                            Well of course facts are in short supply for Brexit. We simply do not know. End of story. The facts of remaining are all too clear, notwithstanding the likelihood of Britain becoming more peripheral in any case as a member of the "outer ring" of a two-tier Europe. With that will come less engagement and a gradual detachment from the Eurozone core. Alternatively, and this is my favoured scenario - the Eurozone's inherent and deeply imbedded weaknesses will not survive the decade and that once it has collapsed the federal aspirations of the Brussel's elite will be dashed and the EU as we know it will gradually fragment.

                            Not in the least - and anyone who seriously believes that Europe will suddenly take its football away in a fit of pique and make life troublesome for their second most significant partner is deluding themselves.
                            Charlie

                            Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

                            Comment

                            • Bruce
                              Independent analyst
                              • Jan 2000
                              • 10223

                              #15
                              So, in one scenario, we are 'peripheral', and in the other we are the 'second most significant partner'?

                              I don't see that Charlie. For me, globalisation changed everything. We cant be isolated even if we wanted to (not that I am suggesting that is what Brexit is about). I don't see us in a better position by being outside of the Union.

                              I note that one poll is currently suggesting that the vote for exit is ahead of that against. In other news, Jeremy Corbyn's Labour party is neck and neck with the Tories, despite being 9 points behind less than a week ago!

                              Time will tell.

                              Comment

                              • charliehunt
                                Nearly there!
                                • Oct 2012
                                • 11459

                                #16
                                The latter is what we are now and will continue to be if we leave - the former is what we will become within the membership structure.

                                Precisely, Bruce. I couldn't have put it better. Globalisation is inclusive not exclusive. We don't need to be part of a stifling, top down, bureaucratic autocracy.

                                But on that last point we are agreed - time WILL tell!
                                Last edited by charliehunt; 15th March 2016, 13:19. Reason: Clarification.
                                Charlie

                                Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

                                Comment

                                • Vampirefan
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Sep 2011
                                  • 171

                                  #17
                                  You may be right Charlie - but I'm afraid I'm not sufficiently nave to put the future viability of my business in the hands of others, regardless of who they are or their motives. At least having the place in France gives us options for the long term.........

                                  You can keep the Eurofighter Bruce - you know my fancy for sporty little Italian numbers - I'll have a MC.202 Flogore if you don't mind!

                                  Comment

                                  • trumper
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Aug 2003
                                    • 6722

                                    #18
                                    I am stuffed as to what to believe, i normally ask "if a politician wants it,what is he going going to get out of it or mores the point what am i going to lose? " but now i have Cameron on 1 side saying stay in,Buffon Boris and IBS saying leave, so which bullet do i shoot myself with?.
                                    How does doing aviation business in Europe compare to the USA for example?

                                    Comment

                                    • charliehunt
                                      Nearly there!
                                      • Oct 2012
                                      • 11459

                                      #19
                                      You have to trust your instincts, Trump. It's one of those occasions where there are no clear cut choices because so much is either unknown or conjecture about what might be.
                                      Charlie

                                      Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

                                      Comment

                                      • Bruce
                                        Independent analyst
                                        • Jan 2000
                                        • 10223

                                        #20
                                        Ultimately, don't listen to anyone who has a vested interest. That may, or may not include some politicians. It certainly does include much of the right wing press. It doesn't include well informed people like the governor of the bank of England, who was panned for his intervention, something I don't agree with at all. Many from the 'Out' camp were quick to say that he shouldn't get involved, yet if we are to form an opinion, his is exactly the kind of voice we need to hear. We need more expert witnesses - on both sides.

                                        I think we are about to head to General Discussion with this - ultimately, I dont think it will affect our hobby much either way.

                                        Comment

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