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    The way I see it, in the last 25 years, we (Britain + EU) have drifted endlessly further and further left, until we now have young plonkers shouting 'no nations, no borders' and eventually someone stood up and shouted 'STOP, enough of this bullsh!t!'

    But of course now the definition of 'far right' has changed from being a moustached guy gassing 6 million Jews, to anyone who doesn't think unlimited immigration is sound for whatever reason.

    Here's terrible racist Britain over the last 10 years compared to Germany and France:




    ^Includes overseas territories.



    Fairly obvious that can't continue. But of course, France blames the UK for the Calais migrant problem, rather than Italy who let them pass through to France, or the Schengen border system in general.

    Comment


      All well-and-good if you examine population numbers in isolation; not so convincing an argument if you examine the age demographic of the population. All government policy, particularly pension and welfare policy, is built on a slow but steady increase in working population to cover the steady and predicted increase in the number of pensioners (and particularly public-sector pensioners).

      If all the immigration from the last ten years was wiped-out the United Kingdom would be short of about two million workers even if unemployment was zero. What would be the effect on British businesses and GDP growth if we could not fill those jobs? What about the skills shortage?

      What would happen to the large and growing UK national debt if GDP stagnated or started to fall?
      WA$.

      Comment


        Having only got a new passport a couple of months ago, with "European Union" on the front of it, does anybody know if we will need to get new ones in 2019 or whenever ?

        Comment


          I'm interested in your comment about 'skill shortages'. Most, if not all of the people we are importing, seemingly without end, appear to arrive here from the countries of Eastern Europe, North and East Africa, the Middle East and the Far East.

          For the most part they arrive here from countries formerly described as 'Third World' - altho' that description might now have fallen foul of the Thought Police. Even if they do not arrive here from 'Third World' countries, they arrive from countries that are economically poor and deprived by comparison with their chosen destinations. This must make them economic migrants rather than migrants with excellent in-demand-skills much needed by a grateful host nation such as GB, for example.

          So, my question is: What kind of rare skills is it that we, a First World country with - by some reckoning, the fifth biggest economy in the world - need to import from countries who obviously, need them more than we and who, again obviously, can't have had them in the first place otherwise they would not continue to enjoy Third World status ?

          This canard, first propagated by the spiv Blair, has been around for so long and has been quoted so often by commentators that it has almost entered the lexicon.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Argonaut View Post
            Having only got a new passport a couple of months ago, with "European Union" on the front of it, does anybody know if we will need to get new ones in 2019 or whenever ?

            My suggestion is to hang onto it. It will, in the fullness of time acquire a rarity and curiousity value that will make it tradeable on Ebay. I'll take a punt and open the bidding with 10 pence.

            Comment


              Starfish, there's nothing particularly 'left' about a liberal immigration policy, or liberal thinking generally. To see how off-beam your thesis is, you only need to look at the elected governing parties over the period - for a Labour government to become electable it had to lose all sign of the left, while remaining liberal. I agree society had become more liberal over the past few decades, by the dictionary definition of liberal. However at the same time the 'man in the street' has -for example - gone from believing unions are necessary, through 'necessary evil' to just evil. That's one of many measures by which we have plainly moved to the right.

              Interestingly you are following a more phenomenal trend, which is the confusion of socialism with liberalsm in the minds of the illiberal.
              Last edited by Beermat; 9th October 2016, 18:49.
              www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
              It's all good. Probably.

              Comment


                Originally posted by John Green View Post
                My suggestion is to hang onto it. It will, in the fullness of time acquire a rarity and curiousity value that will make it tradeable on Ebay. I'll take a punt and open the bidding with 10 pence.
                I still have my original blue hardback passport. When I eventually get around to renewing my present one, it will go inside that.
                Engine Failure:.... A condition which occurs when all fuel tanks mysteriously become filled with air.

                Comment


                  I don't give a toss what colour my passport is.

                  I just hope if they do change it when mine expires in 4 years or so they keep the smaller format as it is much more convenient than the old bulky blue/black one

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Beermat View Post
                    Starfish, there's nothing particularly 'left' about a liberal immigration policy, or liberal thinking generally. To see how off-beam your thesis is, you only need to look at the elected governing parties over the period - for a Labour government to become electable it had to lose all sign of the left, while remaining liberal. I agree society had become more liberal over the past few decades, by the dictionary definition of liberal. However at the same time the 'man in the street' has -for example - gone from believing unions are necessary, through 'necessary evil' to just evil. That's one of many measures by which we have plainly moved to the right.
                    That's because British unions have a well founded reputation for being self serving opportunists. Regular striking by the likes of London Underground is not endearing. You only have to look across to Germany or Sweden to see how responsible employers and Unions can work in harmony. We won't mention France...

                    Comment


                      Yep - it looks like it was our own unions that killed the British union movement. The knock on effect will be seen as pretty disastrous, once we are no longer in the midst of it. There were some idiots in charge at the time, on both sides. But one side could tell the newspapers what to say and the police what to do.
                      www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
                      It's all good. Probably.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by John Green View Post
                        I'm interested in your comment about 'skill shortages'. Most, if not all of the people we are importing, seemingly without end, appear to arrive here from the countries of Eastern Europe, North and East Africa, the Middle East and the Far East...
                        I'll take it as a given that you do not dispute there is a 'skill shortage' in United Kingdom commerce and industry.

                        http://www.cbi.org.uk/news/getting-s...st-referendum/

                        I'm sure it fits your view of the world that every immigrant to this country is a semi-illiterate scrounger coming here to live off our benefits, and, while I'm sure that is true in a small minority of cases, the majority of migrants do actually offer skills to UK businesses that are not available from the indigenous population and certainly the many migrants from 'Eastern Europe' should not be considered as having come from the 'Third World'!

                        A few years ago I spent several months in Hungary (based in Hevis near lake Balaton) and I have to say how shocked I was how advanced the country seemed compared to the United Kingdom; Wi-Fi in every cafe, restaurant and bar, internet-cafes everywhere and more electric-hybrid cars than I'd ever seen on UK roads. Even after several months I could only speak two words of Hungarian (no and thank-you!) and mainly conversed in what little German I have but the owner of the guest-house where I stayed spoke perfect English as a fourth language (after Hungarian, perfect German and, of course, perfect Russian) and even her seven year old son could hold a conversation with me in English!

                        Yes, 'Eastern Europe' has its problems, but 'Eastern Europe' is a big place and it would be very wrong to assume that it is all as bad as the very worst bits of it or that its population is uneducated, backward or lack skills or (especially) enterprise!
                        Last edited by Creaking Door; 9th October 2016, 21:18.
                        WA$.

                        Comment


                          Your selectivity of argument is almost on par with mine. I note that you selected Eastern Europe as your sole means of explanation. We are receiving many thousands of migrants from the other areas I mentioned but, they did not merit your rebuttal.

                          I was rather hoping that you would explain the seeming paradox that is at the heart of my #1664.

                          How can you be sure 'that it is true of a small minority of cases' anymore than I can be sure that it is true of a 'large majority of cases ?' One way or another, I do not know.

                          Comment


                            I selected Eastern Europe because that is where, I believe, the majority of foreign-born workers in the United Kingdom come from and because this is the BREXIT thread; it is also where I have some limited experience of one of the countries which you regarded as being in the Third World.

                            As I am sure you are aware, the many thousands of 'migrants' from North and East Africa, the Middle East and the Far East, come here as asylum-seekers and are prevented from working until their asylum application has been accepted (or rejected); and, of course, as I'm sure you are also aware these asylum-seekers can claim asylum in the United Kingdom whether we are in the EU or not, and we're not exactly welcoming them while we are in the EU.

                            And just because somebody comes from the Middle East, for example, it doesn't mean they are an illiterate goat-herder! When I was a student on my industrial placement year the man I worked for was a project engineer from Iran, his family had escaped from Iran following the revolution in 1979, the last I heard of him he was managing director of the company.

                            Even if the migrants to this country are not highly skilled professionals most of them posses an enviable work-ethic that is sadly lacking in many of our home-grown 'talent'. This country, despite having over a million and a half 'unemployed', does not produce people who are prepared to do some of the work that is on offer, it's not glamorous work or highly skilled, but it is vital: such as cleaning hospitals or caring for the elderly. And it's not just hospital cleaners that we need.

                            One third of NHS doctors were born abroad:

                            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...rn-abroad.html
                            WA$.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by John Green View Post
                              I was rather hoping that you would explain the seeming paradox that is at the heart of my #1664.
                              Paradox?
                              WA$.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Creaking Door View Post
                                All well-and-good if you examine population numbers in isolation; not so convincing an argument if you examine the age demographic of the population. All government policy, particularly pension and welfare policy, is built on a slow but steady increase in working population to cover the steady and predicted increase in the number of pensioners (and particularly public-sector pensioners).

                                If all the immigration from the last ten years was wiped-out the United Kingdom would be short of about two million workers even if unemployment was zero. What would be the effect on British businesses and GDP growth if we could not fill those jobs? What about the skills shortage?

                                What would happen to the large and growing UK national debt if GDP stagnated or started to fall?
                                Sadly, it doesn't work out that way. The immigration is all low income, and of the employed portion of it, 25% pay less than zero net tax. Even in terms of gross tax, the average A8 migrant pays less than a third of the combined tax+NI of the average UK employee, even though that average has now been dragged down by the migration. Additionally they impose an added burden on public services, which is yet to even be paid for.

                                Always two sides to every coin. What happens to the deficit if we start actually paying for the required public service expansions? If GDP stagnates but the deficit turns into a surplus due to a reduced burden on public services and benefits then that's still better than the status quo.

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by Beermat View Post
                                  Starfish, there's nothing particularly 'left' about a liberal immigration policy, or liberal thinking generally. To see how off-beam your thesis is, you only need to look at the elected governing parties over the period - for a Labour government to become electable it had to lose all sign of the left, while remaining liberal. I agree society had become more liberal over the past few decades, by the dictionary definition of liberal. However at the same time the 'man in the street' has -for example - gone from believing unions are necessary, through 'necessary evil' to just evil. That's one of many measures by which we have plainly moved to the right.

                                  Interestingly you are following a more phenomenal trend, which is the confusion of socialism with liberalsm in the minds of the illiberal.
                                  Well, this is the problem, it's not seen as leftist anymore when in fact it's extremely leftist. And if you want to see the socialism, it's because the taxpayer is left to pick up the costs of this low income migration, while the employers privatise the profits and the money earned exits the country, along with the subsidisation that already exists via the EU subscription fee and bailouts.

                                  Comment


                                    Employers 'privatising' profits is the opposite of socialism. As is taxpayer subsidy of a process that supports this, if this is what is happening.

                                    It would never have been mistaken for 'leftist' once.

                                    When people look back on all this in 100 years time they will be amazed at how in a time of mass communication an educated and free nation could be led to believe black is white and private exploitation of an economic imbalance at a cost to the taxpayer is 'leftist'.
                                    Last edited by Beermat; 10th October 2016, 15:39.
                                    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
                                    It's all good. Probably.

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by Starfish Prime View Post
                                      Sadly, it doesn't work out that way. The immigration is all low income...
                                      All low income.....does that include the one in three doctors working for the NHS?

                                      Originally posted by Starfish Prime View Post
                                      ...and of the employed portion of it, 25% pay less than zero net tax...
                                      Well, in that case, immigration must be mostly high income; the national average for employees in the United Kingdom is that about 50% pay less than zero net tax.

                                      Originally posted by Starfish Prime View Post
                                      If GDP stagnates but the deficit turns into a surplus due to a reduced burden on public services and benefits...
                                      Well, that would be a miracle! Have you been talking to Donald Trump's campaign manager?
                                      Last edited by Creaking Door; 10th October 2016, 17:38.
                                      WA$.

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by Beermat View Post
                                        Employers 'privatising' profits is the opposite of socialism. As is taxpayer subsidy of a process that supports this, if this is what is happening.

                                        It would never have been mistaken for 'leftist' once.

                                        When people look back on all this in 100 years time they will be amazed at how in a time of mass communication an educated and free nation could be led to believe black is white and private exploitation of an economic imbalance at a cost to the taxpayer is 'leftist'.
                                        Not when the taxpayer is socialising the costs. If the employers actually had to pay a high enough wage such that immigrants paid there fair share of tax+NI, they wouldn't be hiring foreigners. The EU subscription is also socialist. Furthermore, see the use of the term, "far right," used increasingly to describe people against immigration.

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by Creaking Door View Post
                                          All low income.....does that include the one in three doctors working for the NHS?


                                          Well, in that case, immigration must be mostly high income; the national average for employees in the United Kingdom is that about 50% pay less than zero net tax.


                                          Well, that would be a miracle! Have you been talking to Donald Trump's campaign manager?
                                          The average income of A8 employees is 8/hour, as already linked on this thread in the past, and that is the main source of immigration.

                                          Care to prove that. The average salary in the UK pays 3 times more gross tax+NI than A8 migrants - FACT!

                                          I was unable to speak to Hillary's because Satan was busy.

                                          http://www.londonstockexchange.com/e...html?index=UKX
                                          Last edited by Starfish Prime; 11th October 2016, 10:22.

                                          Comment


                                           

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