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  • Bruce
    Independent analyst

    #41
    Firstly, nonsense. Global warning is real and is happening. Even if it wasn't there is a massive argument to stop treating the planet as if it was an infinite resource.

    Now, serious question to those who wish to leave the EU.

    What do you think will change if the vote goes in your favour? We have discussed the number of laws that originate in Europe, and much more. So, if we 'take back' this sovereignty you value so highly, what do you think will happen?

    Comment

    • charliehunt
      Nearly there!

      #42
      Bruce - your Freudian typo "warning" perfectly illustrates the dumb stupidity of the those driving the brakeless train towards an energy apocalypse. The whole sorry charade based on flawed science and spineless political leadership.

      I note only yesterday the National Grid is warning of probable energy shortages next Winter. And all because the idiots at the DECC are bent on closing down our major and cheapest forms of electricity generation in favour of grossly subsidised grossly inefficient generation. In what other field of activity are producers paid when they produce nothing? Utter folly and what's worse a total dereliction of government's responsibility to its citizens.

      This should be required viewing by everyone who seriously believes in renewable energy. All very simple stuff but clearly ignored because it doesn't fit the model.
      http://youtu.be/ObvdSmPbdLg
      Last edited by charliehunt; 28th February 2016, 08:40.
      Charlie

      Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

      Comment

      • John Green
        Rank 5 Registered User

        #43
        Bruce,

        Today's 'warming' is tomorrows cooling. That perfectly explains the transient and cyclical nature of the Earths climatic processes.

        What we don't know is the duration of the warming and cooling processes. For mankind to even imagine that it can, in any conceivable way, affect those cosmic processes is arrogant to the point of absurdity.

        We might be in a warming blip of ten years or ten thousand - we do not know and we will never know.

        As for your EU question, I'm surprised that you have to ask it. We become once more in sole charge of our national destiny. No longer kowtowing to some unelected elite who think that they know what is best for the British. My family fought innumerable wars and conflicts to avoid subjection - as I know did many others.

        The actions of the traitor Heath resulted in a severance from our kin in the Commonwealth and the handing over of national assets to a conglomerate of foreign powers with whom we have absolutely nothing in common, other than perhaps some shared blood with the Germans.

        Despite membership of this failed, discredited and corrupt organisation, mired in sclerotic industrial and financial practices, Britain is prospering, altho' we still have problems. Consider then, how much better would we prosper outside this monumental example of European arrogance and ineptitude ?

        Comment

        • trekbuster
          Rank 5 Registered User

          #44
          My father fought in a war. His father was wounded and his uncle was killed in the first world war. My mothers uncles all fought in the second world war, one of them was killed. Both my father and the surviving great-uncles were profoundly pro-European and supported the entry into the EU in the 70's. My father is still with us and he will be voting to stay in the EU.
          Please don't assume that all veterans hold your point of view, many may well do, but not all.

          Comment

          • John Green
            Rank 5 Registered User

            #45
            Yes, I do accept that your family appears to follow a pattern.

            Comment

            • trekbuster
              Rank 5 Registered User

              #46
              Is that intended to be an insult? For me it is a compliment.

              Please be specific. Are you, in a round about way, trying to say that you believe the service and sacrifice to Britain that my family has given is somehow less valid than yours because we all support different views socially and politically to you as far as can be assessed by the postings on this forum?

              Please accept my apologies if this is not what #45 is intended to infer. It is just that I do find it saddening that in general the Outers seem to want to suggest that any opposing view to theirs is somehow unpatriotic.

              Comment

              • charliehunt
                Nearly there!

                #47
                May I gate crash this twosome?

                Do they - in general? I haven't discerned that although I agree a minority might feel it. Probably about the same as the Inners who confuse being EUphile with being Europhile. I will continue to enjoy as much time as health allows visiting Europe as I have for the past nigh on 70 years. The most wonderfully diverse range of people and cultures and all within a few hours travelling. But ruled over by an ever less accountable autocracy in Brussels? No thank you.
                Charlie

                Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

                Comment

                • John Green
                  Rank 5 Registered User

                  #48
                  Trekkie,

                  I interpreted your comments as meaning that you and your family were all or, for the most part, of a similar outlook on the matters under discussion. That's all.

                  I don't know why patriotism or, the lack of it should come into the discussion. It isn't a matter of patriotism rather, one of pragmatism. Why any country shouldn't wish to be captain of its fate, master of all its actions is beyond my capacity to reconcile.

                  You admit that your family like mine and like a million others in the country has given of its blood and treasure to remain an independent nation. Forty year ago, in pursuit of some misguided political goal, we gave our country away to the control of a conglomerate of powers. All that we lacked then was a physical occupation to remind us of our subjection.

                  All that has now changed. We have a multi million strong, multi nation and multi cultural occupying entity that we cannot prevent reminding us of our servitude in that respect. All that we are told by our politicians is that this policy is good for us and besides which, we are powerless to draw a line under it.

                  Apart from any other worthwhile argument about the value of political union, the economy, scale economics or what ever excuse one wants to put forward, the fact remains that our removal from this festeringly corrupt EU elite and the restoration of British independence is all that matters.

                  Forty or so years ago we surrendered our independence. The truly awful political morass we now find ourselves embroiled in is a direct consequence of that decision. We have only ourselves to blame for falling for the EU's lies.

                  Comment

                  • charliehunt
                    Nearly there!

                    #49
                    Reading today's press reveals we did not fall for EU lies but we're not privvy to the truth of what our political leaders were actually signing us up to. Had I known in 1975 that we were being invited to join a political United States of Europe I would not have voted yes.
                    Last edited by charliehunt; 28th February 2016, 16:47.
                    Charlie

                    Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

                    Comment

                    • John Green
                      Rank 5 Registered User

                      #50
                      I knew and I voted no. Jean Monnet had made it plain. A United State of Europe was the intention, that much had been declared in 1951. The subsumation of the French and German coal and steel industries was the natural outcome of the desire to link the heavy industries of France and Germany as an expression of the desire to control the sinews of war.

                      Jean Monnet expressed an opinion that reverberated around the world -eventually. He said that the impetus for European integration leading to a Federal Europe should be carefully concealed from the people of Europe until the integrationist manoeuvers were complete. That the blueprint for this should not openly be discussed. That concealment has been maintained up until the present day.

                      So, we can deduce that fraud, deception and evasion were the foundations of the incipient EU. Nothing has changed !

                      Comment

                      • charliehunt
                        Nearly there!

                        #51
                        I too was aware of Monnet's statements and intentions. But as you rightly say all of this was concealed from the electorate during the campaigning for the referendum and so, naively believing our politicians of the day, I made the wrong choice.

                        Now it is crystal clear, nothing is hidden, the EU is about a United States of Europe or it is about nothing. And the Inners cannot hide from it.
                        Charlie

                        Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

                        Comment

                        • Bruce
                          Independent analyst

                          #52
                          But, can we return to 1975 by simply voting out? Of course not. All of the laws passed in the name of Europe will still be there, like them or no. It is a different world, for good or ill.

                          Comment

                          • John Green
                            Rank 5 Registered User

                            #53
                            Who said anything about a return to the days of 1975 ? I don't think that many would want that. Laws that have been adopted into English law can be repealed. No Parliament can be bound by the actions of its predecessor.

                            Comment

                            • Bruce
                              Independent analyst

                              #54
                              But how many of those do you expect would be? That was my point.

                              I am ignorant of the details, but suspect that the vast majority of those laws that stem from our involvement in Europe are to our advantage, and that only a tiny, tiny number might be repealed in any case.

                              I note this week, that all the propaganda regarding, for example, straight cucumbers, and renaming Cadbury Dairy Milk was largely written by Boris Johnson. It did its job..

                              Comment

                              • charliehunt
                                Nearly there!

                                #55
                                I quite agree with the assumption you make in the second paragraph. The past is done. Brexit is about the future and the destination to which the EU is headed is not one which I want to travel to. I have a strong feeling that once the Euro collapses the the EU will as well, but I'd rather not wait that long.

                                Mind you I think there will be serious implications for the longevity of the EU, should the UK leave.
                                Charlie

                                Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

                                Comment

                                • John Green
                                  Rank 5 Registered User

                                  #56
                                  Bruce,

                                  Much EU legislation is hidden. Hidden in the sense that none of us are aware that, for example, a newly promulgated law is EU inspired and foisted upon us in the guise of saving polar bears. Well, if you happen to believe in saving polar bears then that is fine and you will obviously make a worthwhile connection between the action of the EU and managing the existence of Arctic wildlife !

                                  Here are one or two ready examples of ideologically driven EU laws:

                                  Restricting the power of electric kettles
                                  Restricting the power of vacuum machines
                                  Restricting the power of light bulbs
                                  Adding further EASA complication to the existing morass of flight crew licencing.
                                  Metrication of our system of weights and measures costing untold expense in converting cash tills, some road signs, and where imperial does not match metric, as in some timber dimensions, being forced to buy metric oversized to then trim down to the imperial equivalent. What an unbelievably stupid exercise in EU musclle flexing.

                                  Three of the above, acceptable only if you believe in man made global climate change - which, obviously, you do.

                                  Frankly, I do not know how many EU inspired laws there are or, how many will eventually be repealed. I would guess that there are quite a number.

                                  Comment

                                  • snafu
                                    Senior Member

                                    #57
                                    Originally posted by John Green View Post
                                    Metrication of our system of weights and measures costing untold expense in converting cash tills, some road signs, and where imperial does not match metric, as in some timber dimensions, being forced to buy metric oversized to then trim down to the imperial equivalent. What an unbelievably stupid exercise in EU musclle flexing.
                                    (Psst - there is only one 'L' in muscle these days, and 'ye' has given way to 'the' as well, in modern language...)

                                    Oh dear. You'll be wanting pounds, shillings and pence back too, despite the cost of converting tills and the confusion it will cause.

                                    Does it tax your conscience that children can now understand and, heaven forbid, be able (should they wish) to work out weights, volumes and measurements? The fact that the metric system is a much simpler system, easy to use and understand matters not to you - just that it was unjustly forced upon dear old Blighty by dastardly foreigners, and must be repealed.
                                    The last people taught solely imperial measurements in Britain (in state schools, anyway) will be on the cusp of retiring, if they haven't already; are you really going to propose that the whole thing be upended again just so that the elderly can happily retire to a coffin measured out in feet and inches? Might you remember when children's TV programme Blue Peter held a poll to decide whether to continue to include imperial with the metric measurements for their craft and cookery projects, before deciding that since the vast majority wanting imperial were retired and their target audience was school aged and being taught metric measurements anyway then they would avoid confusion and not pander to their secondary target.
                                    As for wood products you may order them by the foot but plans will be in metric - unless you've dusted off something older than your carpenter.
                                    And where abouts are those road signs with metric distances on them, again...?

                                    Originally posted by John Green View Post
                                    Three of the above, acceptable only if you believe in man made global climate change - which, obviously, you do.
                                    Global climate change is the work of the EU? That should turn the heads of those anti climate changers in America...
                                    Now you don't think that, maybe, the reason for restricting power levels might be something to do with reducing the amount of electricity required to power the item and thereby reduce the cost of using it, do you? I realise you don't like sharing but power is a finite source and we should be doing what we can to conserve it; I mean, look at the MPG (KPL?) of your first car and compare it with your current model, assuming your first wasn't a horse.

                                    Originally posted by John Green View Post
                                    Frankly, I do not know how many EU inspired laws there are or, how many will eventually be repealed. I would guess that there are quite a number.
                                    And many tears will you shed...

                                    Comment

                                    • Lincoln 7
                                      Better than Rank 1 user

                                      #58
                                      Chas would care if you had said "RUGBY" I bet . BTW I am voting to leave, things have never been the same since Ted Heath got his foot in the door.
                                      Jim
                                      Lincoln .7
                                      There is no such thing as a problem, just a solution!!

                                      Comment

                                      • John Green
                                        Rank 5 Registered User

                                        #59
                                        I don't know about 'patriotism being the last refuge of the scoundrel' but your hunt for the lurking typo is indicative of a certain desperation. As for your suggestion about LSD - yes, I'm all for that. Tho' you probably think I'm referring to some recreational substance.

                                        Your grasp of elementary physics is about on par with that of an educated chimpanzee and not a very handsome one at that.

                                        I was taught the metric system alongside imperial when I was knee high to a buttercup. My opposition is based on the quite un-necessary legal compulsion attached to the use of metrication which resulted in shopkeepers being prosecuted and thus given a criminal record for selling a pound of spuds. How do I know ? I was a witness at the magistrates court in Barnstaple wherein the very first prosecution in Britain was heard which resulted in a verdict of guilty and an award of a token fine.

                                        If metrication takes your fancy - fine but, prosecution for using traditional imperial ? That leaves a bad taste.

                                        Who wrote anything about metric road distances ? You over reach yourself. I was referring to road bridge heights.

                                        Anyway, back to the 'polar bears'. Whatever ill considered measures we take in this country to deal with either a real or imagined climate warming scenario, will be as nothing in terms of end result, compared with the uncontrolled profligacy of the industrial crap pumped out by China, Russia and India about which we can do nothing.

                                        In the meantime, as a country we penalise ourselves with subsidies and taxation penalties, promoting useless renewable energy schemes and silly waste collection separation with most, if not all, ending up in landfill anyway.

                                        The 'Alice in Wonderland' place in which you reside Snafu is, exactly for you and others, tailor made.

                                        Comment

                                        • ~Alan~
                                          Rank 5 Registered User

                                          #60
                                          Even youngsters when asked their height, will more often than not give their height in Feet and inches.
                                          Engine Failure:.... A condition which occurs when all fuel tanks mysteriously become filled with air.

                                          Comment

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