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  • Agent K
    Rank 5 Registered User

    More great news on Brexit job creation.....

    European Medicines Agency (EMA) and the European Banking Authority (EBA) from London to Amsterdam and Paris.

    Great for these countries to be getting these skilful jobs created there.

    And theyll be getting the banks and finance industry next, really positive news for them this week.
    Last edited by Agent K; 20th November 2017, 22:05.

    Comment

    • Agent K
      Rank 5 Registered User

      More great news for high tech jobs in Europe and Airbus space and defence:

      UK firms 'excluded' from space contracts by Brexithttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42065836

      Comment

      • Bruce
        Independent analyst

        As the subject has found its way onto GA in the past few days, I thought I would give this a gentle bump.

        If we can stick with personal opinions/statements please, and not just use You Tube to find our voices, that would be nice!



        Bruce

        Comment

        • St. John
          Rank 3 Registered User

          The UK hasn't left yet to be fair, so EU imports have not been tariffed yet. It's only then that we'll see the outcome.

          Comment

          • Shorty01
            Short Member

            We look a right bunch of numpties to the rest of the world. One thing I've learnt in life is a crap plan is better than no plan. I think we should get Aunt Betty the Second to tell everyone what to do. But we can't because she has to stay apolitical.

            Anyway with the car manufacturers saying it's going badly I thought that before it all goes belly up and I get accused of jumping on the bandwagon I would state for the record my concerns. I have avoided getting embroiled in the Brexit slaging match so far but feel I should make comment. It's not scaremongering, it's how it is.

            My concerns about Brexit, which I think we all agree is going to happen.

            I admit this is my view based on a small section of the issues involved, but these are issues I feel qualified to comment on as I see it every day in my work.
            My concerns mainly come from my experiences working in part of the aerospace industry for the last 28 years, especially my 18 years working on the manufacturing side of engineering.

            I do not think many people outside of the manufacturing industry fully appreciate how difficult it will be to just do more trade with the rest of the world outside the EU. I have worked on bids for new work and have colleagues who have been/are on teams who go out to find new customers. I have seen that the companies I have worked for have already done, and continue to mount a global trade campaign. It is probably safe to assume most large manufacturing companies have done/do the same already. We are not going to magic up more trade just like that. We are already fighting bl**dy hard for it as it is. Potential new customers will know we are negotiating from a position of weakness and will exploit us.

            Ah, but we are good at manufacturing in the UK I hear people say. Well we are, but the manufacturing sector has been contracting for decades. Part of the result of this is that manufacturing companies have merged many times with consequent loss of skills and facilities, if not closed down completely. This has occurred across most manufacturing sectors. I don't feel UK Manufacturing is not strong enough in its current form to pull us out of trouble.
            When I started in my particular part of the industry we had three major manufacturing sites in the UK. These three sites had expertise and facilities which allowed at least two of them to perform certain manufacturing tasks. As mergers occurred between the sites these skills/facilities were consolidated on one site to save on overheads and the other inefficiencies. One site was eventually closed which was a great loss. So we had a situation in the late 90s with tasks split between two sites with no dual capacity, i.e. a certain department would exist at one site only. We then started merging with European companies out of the necessity to stay in business. This meant more consolidation, meaning we went from having one site in the UK to perform various tasks to one site in Europe. The skills/facilities have been lost to the UK. It is not just in my part of the industry this has happened. I was recently involved in the procurement of an assembly jig that needed to be accurate to 0.1 mm flatness over 2.5 meters. Many decades ago there would have been a considerable number of companies in this country that could perform the work. After extensive research we could only find four in the UK.

            Then there are people looking out for their own turf. Certain factions within the large EU conglomerate companies have been trying to get work from the UK sites to their European sites for years. The culture of the individual companies from which the large conglomerates were formed still exists to a certain extent and they want to strengthen their position. Brexit will be the excuse they have been longing for to consolidate further by chopping the UK sites out of the equation. Again this will affect a lot of manufacturing sectors.
            Where profit margins are small, any additional costs incurred by additional overheads due to difficulties moving staff and other assets around post Brexit will be a further excuse to cut the UK sections out of the loop. The Tariffs are only one part of the costs incurred.

            Dont think it wont happen as the skills set is here in the UK. A lot of large companies move their people around doing secondments for several years and there will already have been a significant amount of knowledge transfer between sites. One site I worked at for many years was gradually having its work transferred to another site in Europe in a subtle manner. Staff would be seconded to us, work their way up the management tree then disappear to whence they came. It got to the point where it was a challenge to spot the Brit on the new management organigrams when they came out. Having said that, I was discussing recruitment with my manager and asked when we were getting the new bod he had promised us. He assured me he was doing interviews then remarked do you realise that we have only had one UK applicant for the position? which brings me to my next point.

            Another factor to consider is the status of Engineering in British society. Its not regarded as being a career to aspire to by many as it doesnt earn or hold the prestige of other professions such as Architects, Lawyers, Accountants, Doctors etc. Tell someone you are an Engineer and they assume you are either a nerd and/or covered in oil (I admit that is me, but only in my time off). The horror of a mother at a dinner party mentioning her offspring wanted to be an engineer would result in an awkward silence and much cutlery shuffling/comments about the weather in certain parts of the Home Counties.
            So we dont have enough engineers now, as due to contracting manufacturing and the social stigma, not many Brits want to be Engineers. In my industry approx 20% of the office are foreign nationals, mostly from the EU. A lot dont feel welcome anymore so will leave the UK and we dont have anyone to fill their places. Even if we have a massive campaign to train UK nationals it will be about 8-10 years by the time they have gone through the education system and have a decent amount of experience to make an impression on the problem. This will further knock back various sectors of UK manufacturing.

            In fact Brexit is already having an effect. A lot of projects in Aerospace are multinational now. We are seeing the hit on research projects, especially in the academic/university area where the uncertainty of Brexit has lead to the potential UK participants being shut out as they are now seen as too great a risk.

            Its not just Engineering. I have friends, expat Brits, who live near Frankfurt who have seen the value of their property rise dramatically in the last few years as a result of all the new financial jobs in Frankfurt as companies recruit there, ignoring London for the most part. You dont hear about it as there are no large financial job losses in London, just not so many new ones.

            So I dont think we are in a position to go through with Brexit. 25 to 30 years ago maybe we could have got away with it, but we are too integrated with the EU and have lost a lot of strengths we need to rely on to make a success of Brexit. In my view the financial damage of Brexit will far outweigh any benefits.

            The people may have spoken but I dont think they had been fully informed of the full situation and the consequences of their vote.

            Anyway, Im not saying anymore on the matter.

            Good Luck Everyone.
            It's the one you don't see that gets you (usually)...

            Comment

            • St. John
              Rank 3 Registered User

              This isn't the first time that people have been left with the consequences of a vote without knowing the full facts. In 1975 nobody told people that the thing they were signing up for would one day include half the Soviet Union, or become a political union. When people voted for Blair they weren't told that he was going to push for the expansion of the EU or allow through major constitutional changes without giving anybody a vote. Do people know what the net result of voting for Remain would be in 30 years? Because the people who voted Join in 1975 certainly didn't? Have politicians ever lied or concealed the truth in elections before? Hell yes. The people never know what the full consequences of their vote will be, never have, never will. This is not something new.

              Comment

              • John Green
                Rank 5 Registered User

                I've written it before in previous comments on this subject; I'll write it again, it is worth repeating: "Man does not live by bread alone". There is more, much much more, to Brexit than mere economics. Don't read into that phrase ' mere economics' more than is intended. As a former civil engineer previously engaged on many capital projects thru' out the world, I'm well aware of the crucial importance of our ability to pay our way.

                There is however, a subject of greater, even immeasurable value to the lives not just the people of this country but all others where freedom is under threat or actually imperilled. We, fairly recently fought two world wars that proved to be hideously expensive in terms of lives and treasure to ensure that not only ourselves but also other subject nations would once again be free to determine the course of their future.

                This prize of liberty and national autonomy was ceded to an anti democratic bullying autocracy who falsely proclaimed that a commercial union would benefit all those who joined the grand project, then named the EEC. The very words of one of the founders of the project; Jean Monnet were framed to obfuscate and conceal the true purpose of what would become the EU.

                The mendacity that flowed thru' the founding of the EEC is still to-day, more than ever, in evidence. The behaviour of the EU's Brexit negotiators has been thru' out nothing less than shocking. And continues to be so. On a personal note, I would suffer the loss of my living standards, regarding my reduced circumstances as a very worthwhile price to pay for the inestimable value of national liberty.

                For the last forty or so years this nation has bowed the knee to what we can with some accuracy describe as a fraudulent coterie of obsessive gangster politicians, obsessed that is with the maintenance of a political charade concealing the true motivation behind a mask of sham benevolence. If anyone was previously in any doubt as to the true intent behind the policies of the EU, there can no longer be any misunderstanding. It is to our shame, that this great country, foremost among equals, could become so beguiled by the machinations of cheap, huckster politicians of all colours.

                Comment

                • Shorty01
                  Short Member

                  John, whilst I agree with some of your views on the EU, I still have to pay my mortgage and feed my children as do many others, some of whom struggle to do so. "Man does not live by bread alone" is a fine sentiment but this country is still suffering from austerity measures and the causes behind them. My childrens' school need to have charity events make ends meet, Teachers all over the country are overworked and under paid, Police numbers are being cut, the Armed forces are just about holding onto what they still have, then there is the NHS etc. The infrastructure of the nation is on the limit of being workable. With Brexit we are adding considerably to the financial stress the country is under, whilst at the same time alienating some who were Anglophiles and helped us. Not all Europeans are anti British.

                  An analogy, I would like to change jobs, however, before I resign I need to find another job. I would maybe like to go it alone and take the redundancy money that has been offered but I don't have anything else organised yet. This is a bit like Brexit, we are resigning because it's not good but we haven't thought out a workable strategy of what to do next. Oh sod the Europeans, we've stuck our fingers up at them, we'll just do trade with the rest of the world. That's my little bit of the Brexit front line, and from where I am I don't see it working which is why I felt the need to make my post above. Not only that but we are making ourselves look a bunch of imbeciles to the rest of the world and consequently lowering our standing on the world stage which is also important for trade.

                  What do I suggest? Give it up as a bad idea or at least postpone it until we sort ourselves out. We have become too integrated with Europe, with all it's failings, to extricate ourselves without significant damage. The trade off I have performed based on my experience is that staying in is a lower risk strategy than leaving.
                  It's the one you don't see that gets you (usually)...

                  Comment

                  • John Green
                    Rank 5 Registered User

                    Shorty,

                    If I could see, measure or experience any tangible benefit to this country arising from membership of the EU I might be tempted to soften my stance. There is none. Some claim that the EU has maintained peace in Europe. That is an obvious nonsense. The presence of NATO backed by American muscle is responsible.

                    When we finally call time on this shoddy enterprise we'll at least be better off to the tune of around forty billion GBP per annum. This is a colossal sum that will benefit our creaking infrastructure as well as perhaps the NHS. When I travel thru' France and Spain which are the two EU countries I most visit, I'm struck by the excellence of the roads and highways in marked contrast to our own inadequately maintained system. The suspicion remains that the quality of their road system is largely paid for by the British - among others.

                    I remember my country pre EEC/EU. For reasons that are readily apparent, It did not work particularly well in those days any more than it does to-day so, my question is: how have we benefited from EU membership ?

                    So far as I and many, many others are concerned none of this matters. What matters is that we regain the freedom to set our own agenda good, bad or indifferent Parliamentary democracy is restored and government by the people returns to its proper role - not rubber stamping for the EU.

                    If there is a lesson to be drawn from Britain's membership of the sclerotic and anti democratic EU, it is never again to trust the word much less the deed of any politician. Suspect the presence of 'axes to be ground' and concealed agendas. We must guard against the appearance of other Edward Heath's and Jean Monnet's.

                    Comment

                    • SurreyAir
                      Rank 2 Registered User

                      I'm waiting for the debate to go too Stone, Paper & Scissors to decide or do the best of 3 referendums, winner takes all!

                      Comment

                      • St. John
                        Rank 3 Registered User

                        I think that at this stage they shouldn't bother with any more trade negotiations and just prepare for a no deal because it's very obvious that things have reached an impasse. What might be worth salvaging is citizens rights and possible joint arrest warrants and stuff like that, which they might actually be able to agree on. But then I guess the EU's insistence on the ECJ may even screw that up too.

                        Comment

                        • dhfan
                          Still cantankerous

                          What has never been mentioned in this thread, as far as I've seen although I stopped actively following it some time ago, was alluded to by St John a couple of posts back.
                          We didn't vote 'Join' in 1975, we voted Remain - in a common market, as that was what we were told Ted Heath had signed us up for, nothing more. To my everlasting regret, I voted to do so, along with most of the electorate.
                          Nobody ever asked us again about anything else...
                          When the extra treaties came along, Maastricht and Lisbon are the ones that spring to mind but there may have been others, we had no choice. All the parties were going to sign them so a vote at a general election wouldn't have made any difference. Unlike a couple of other countries who did hold a referendum, which they had to hold again until they got the 'right' result, we weren't given an option.
                          I believe that's because the politicians, A) thought 'we know best, we'll ignore the public' and, B) more importantly, knew they hadn't a cat in hell's chance of getting a Yes result.
                          Nobody in this country - ever - has voted to join the EU.
                          So why are we in it?

                          Comment

                          • St. John
                            Rank 3 Registered User

                            Quite. I propose a new law making it mandatory to have a referendum whenever powers are handed overseas or a step change is made to the constitution.

                            Comment

                            • Bruce
                              Independent analyst

                              We don't have a constitution - which is part of the problem!

                              Comment

                              • Bradburger
                                Rank 5 Registered User

                                DH Fan,

                                I think I've mentioned it a few times in this thread, but what you say about the UK electorate never voting to join (what was then the EEC), is absolutely true (as is the rest of your post).

                                Yet still to this day, there are those who won't believe it!

                                So you have to chuckle at the hardcore remoaners who continually claim that the leave campaign was full of 'lies and deceit', yet they seem to forget that the whole campaign to join was well, just that!

                                Ted Heath was the chief behind this, and as far back as 1960, he wrote a letter to the then The Lord Chancellor, Lord Kilmuir asking him about the constitutional implications of Britain signing the Treaty of Rome, and the key point that could potentially stop this from happening - our loss of sovereignty.

                                (My apologies for preaching to the converted, but I think it's important to mention it).

                                Lord Kilmuir's reply can be found with a quick Google search, (although it appears the original copy of this letter was removed from the UK Parliament website), and makes for some interesting reading.

                                (It's also worth taking a look at the file from Kew, FCO+30+1048, again a quick Google will bring it up).

                                What the Kilmuir letter and the Kew documents prove is that there would indeed be a loss of sovereignty, something that those who campaigned against our signing of the Rome treaty knew all to well, as did Heath who realised he had to play this down, lying to the UK electorate, and of course, never holding the referendum that he originally promised them!

                                So I'll leave you with this classic line from him, published in the Government's June 1971 White Paper: -

                                "there is no question of Britain losing essential sovereignty"

                                After 45 years of membership, I think it's fair to say (as was known and predicted), this has been proven to not to be the case.

                                Yet we still have the pro EU crowd telling us the UK is 'still sovereign' when this is factually incorrect, or putting it bluntly, a ******* great lie!

                                Cheers

                                Paul
                                Last edited by Bradburger; 3rd October 2018, 19:23.
                                The most usless commodity in aerobatics is the amount of sky above you!

                                Comment

                                • Bradburger
                                  Rank 5 Registered User

                                  We don't have a constitution - which is part of the problem!
                                  Bruce,

                                  I think you'll find we do!

                                  (This seems to be a common misconception, which has become more prominent since June 2016!)

                                  Although not codified (I think that's the term for unwritten) ours is based on statute law, common law, and acts of parliament, and I see no need to change it to some form of written one, as some have suggested.

                                  If anyone wants to know more, I recommend this: -

                                  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Laymans-Eng.../dp/095698150X

                                  https://www.waterstones.com/book/lay.../9780956981509

                                  As someone said, every UK home, school, and business should have at least one copy.

                                  Cheers

                                  Paul
                                  Last edited by Bradburger; 3rd October 2018, 17:58.
                                  The most usless commodity in aerobatics is the amount of sky above you!

                                  Comment

                                  • dhfan
                                    Still cantankerous

                                    I think the usual term is: We don't have a written constitution.

                                    Comment

                                    • Bradburger
                                      Rank 5 Registered User

                                      I think the usual term is: We don't have a written constitution.
                                      Yep, that would be right dhfan!

                                      Cheers

                                      Paul

                                      The most usless commodity in aerobatics is the amount of sky above you!

                                      Comment

                                      • dhfan
                                        Still cantankerous

                                        I don't know if it's unique - I suspect it might be - but it's certainly unusual.

                                        Most of the time it's not a problem and could even be considered a good thing as things have developed over hundreds of years but, unfortunately - or fortunately depending on the circumstances - it means there isn't a document that anybody can refer to and say "It sez 'ere..." if it seems necessary.

                                        Comment

                                        • St. John
                                          Rank 3 Registered User

                                          Constitution or not, handing over powers to foreign entities should require a referendum.

                                          Comment

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