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  • Creaking Door
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Sep 2006
    • 9813

    #61
    Originally posted by trekbuster View Post
    Declan MacManus is the real name of Elvis Costello. I suggest you listen to 'Shipbuilding'...
    I know the track well, know it is about the Falklands and I'm quite a fan of 'Declan MacManus' (but not so much of one that I know his real name)...

    ...but I wonder what he would have done when faced with a military dictatorship attacking the Falklands?
    WA$.

    Comment

    • waco
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jan 2005
      • 590

      #62
      CD
      On 25 February 1982, after several months of negotiations, the Australian government announced that it had agreed to buy Invincible for 175 million as a replacement, under the name HMAS Australia, for the Royal Australian Navy's HMAS Melbourne. The sale was confirmed by the Ministry of Defence.
      FACT

      The Ministry of Defence's 1981 Defence White Paper proposed naval cuts including decommissioning Endurance, which was scheduled for 15 April 1982

      Endurance* '​s withdrawal from Antarctic patrol without replacement was perceived in Britain as having encouraged the Argentinian invasion. The subsequent Franks Report acknowledged it as a factor .

      FACT

      Hermes was due to be decommissioned in 1982 after a 1981 defence review (that would have made the Royal Navy considerably smaller) by the British government,



      FACT

      Come on CD...try reading a couple of half decent books on the subject !

      Comment

      • waco
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2005
        • 590

        #63
        Operation Journeyman was a Royal Navy operation in which a naval taskforce was sent to the Falkland Islands in November 1977 to prevent an Argentine invasion.

        The operation was ordered by James Callaghan after fifty Argentine "scientists" landed on Southern Thule, prompting fears of an Argentine invasion of the Falklands. The Argentinians set up a military base on Thule. It is likely that the prompt action prevented a more serious attack. The force planned under heavy security was led by the nuclear submarine Dreadnought and also consisted of two frigates, Alacrity and Phoebe, and the auxiliaries Resource and Olwen as support vessels. The Argentines rapidly became aware of the taskforce's presence, but their forces remained on Thule and Callaghan decided against the use of force to evict them.

        The foreign secretary at the time David Owen later claimed that if Margaret Thatcher's government had taken similarly quick action five years later, the Argentinians would not have invaded in 1982 leading to the Falklands War.

        errrrr FACT

        Comment

        • Creaking Door
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Sep 2006
          • 9813

          #64
          Originally posted by waco View Post
          Oh and by the way….Lord Halifax (Conservative foreign secretary 1938-1940) wanted to sue for peace with the Germans following the attacks on Poland and subsequently France. Along with other members of the Conservative party. Had he gained control of the Government which he nearly did the third Reich would have been alive and well even now.

          Interesting also to read comments attributed to him regarding Thatcher knighting Jimmy Saville.
          So what are you saying, by association...

          ...the Conservatives are all pedophiles and Nazi sympathisers?
          WA$.

          Comment

          • waco
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Jan 2005
            • 590

            #65
            ...one more thing...HMS Phoebe was the main Leander used in the BBC series Warship. Series one is now available on DVD with series 2 out shortly.

            Its a great watch, especially for any fish heads out there !!!!

            Comment

            • waco
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jan 2005
              • 590

              #66
              Just the facts CD....The Conservative foreign secretary in 1940 Lord Halifax , who was trying to succeed Chamberlain as PM. Along with others on that side of the house. Wanted to sue for peace with Hitler.

              Not a huge fan of WSC but by defeating Halifax and getting control he saved the countries bacon....and probably that of the free world.

              I think you did ask about Poland in an earlier thread ? and old Sunny Jim !
              Last edited by waco; 18th October 2015, 21:12.

              Comment

              • waco
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jan 2005
                • 590

                #67
                If its Nazi sympathisers you want...try the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.

                good old Saxe-Coburgs eh ?

                Comment

                • Creaking Door
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 9813

                  #68
                  Originally posted by waco View Post
                  ...try reading a couple of half decent books on the subject!
                  I have; and I know all about Operation Journeyman too...

                  ...but it does not change the fact that the Argentine Junta was forced to invade the Falklands while HMS Endurance, HMS Hermes and HMS Invincible were still in service (although due for imminent disposal)!

                  You simply cannot argue that the invasion was caused by forces that weren't there.....when they were there!!?!

                  The fact that the Argentine invasion of the Falklands was brought forward probably would have prevented an operation similar to Journeyman; it takes time for the surface ships to get to the Falklands and the 'invisible' nuclear submarine is no threat without them.

                  Anyway, most of these criticisms are politically motivated; faced with the Conservative Party riding-high on a wave of popularity following the liberation of the Falklands (and being utterly unable to criticise the British Forces, the Falkland Islanders and seeing no merit in criticising the Argentine Junta) the political opponents of the government were left with little choice but to blame the Conservatives for causing the conflict in the first place...

                  ...or that somehow Britain had 'cheated' and fought unfairly (ARA General Belgrano sinking)!

                  Of course, had it not been a Conservative government in power in 1982, we are all sure that no defence cuts would have been made (or the right cuts made) and the invasion would have been easily prevented by a little sabre-rattling and the ruthless military dictatorship that was the Argentine Junta would have yielded to the wishes of the Argentine people, resigned, and free and fair elections would have taken place!
                  WA$.

                  Comment

                  • waco
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jan 2005
                    • 590

                    #69
                    They attacked when they did because they felt that Britain by its actions (Edndurance etc ) would not defend the Islands.

                    The First Sea Lord offered up the task force since his fleet was about to be decimated by Conservative defence cuts.
                    The resultant task force saved his navy...for a few years anyway.

                    I don't believe Britain "cheated". The decision to sink the Belgrano was correct.
                    I was surprised they didn't take out the carrier by submarine when she put to sea.

                    Loved Woodwards two books on the subject !

                    Still cannot believe we are going to put a single engined aircraft on our new carriers...if indeed we ever get them !

                    Comment

                    • Creaking Door
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Sep 2006
                      • 9813

                      #70
                      Originally posted by waco View Post
                      They attacked when they did because they felt that Britain by its actions (Edndurance etc) would not defend the Islands...
                      The Junta intended to invade to deflect attention from the failure of their administration; they planned to invade when they knew Britain couldn't re-take the Islands (they were not really 'defended') during the South Atlantic winter, and at a time when HMS Endurance would be in re-fit in the United Kingdom, and after the Royal Navy had been reduced in strength by defence cuts...

                      ...they were forced to invade when they did by the worsening situation in Argentina.

                      The Junta were forced to invade with HMS Endurance on-station, before the winter set-in and before the Royal Navy defence cuts; these factors show how desperate the situation had become (and demonstrate how false is the claim that these factors 'caused' the invasion).

                      I will concede that the Junta may (may!) have been influenced as to the willingness of Britain to attempt to re-take the Islands but if they could have waited the few weeks they needed to wait they would have done so. They were forced to attack when they did because they had run out of options; attacking the Falklands was the last card the Junta had to play and they couldn't even choose when to play it!
                      WA$.

                      Comment

                      • Creaking Door
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Sep 2006
                        • 9813

                        #71
                        Originally posted by waco View Post
                        Still cannot believe we are going to put a single engined aircraft on our new carriers...
                        The Harrier was single-engined and they flew some of them all the way from Ascension Island to the deck of HMS Hermes, on-station in the South Atlantic, off the Falklands!
                        WA$.

                        Comment

                        • waco
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2005
                          • 590

                          #72
                          CD

                          I see your point.....BUT.....I do not think Argentina would have contemplated any attack what ever their domestic situation if they knew
                          the "Empire" would strike back. No carriers, no capability.

                          Its my opinion that by signalling that the UK carrier fleet was being withdrawn/sold gave them the opportunity. last card or no last card.

                          Perhaps we are entering the realms of a circular exchange now.

                          I take your point re the Harrier but we are 30 + years on. I think we should have gone for cat and trap on the carriers with f-18's.
                          Last edited by waco; 18th October 2015, 23:25.

                          Comment

                          • Creaking Door
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Sep 2006
                            • 9813

                            #73
                            Originally posted by trekbuster View Post
                            You are right, I was not a fan of her, although not as one sided either way as some on here. I don't believe her legacy was as positive many here appear to believe, there were many things she instigated that were mistakes. Don't forget how unpopular she was in the country 1982 before the Falklands conflict...
                            Would any leader have been popular in 1982 after taking over in 1979?

                            I think we can all agree that the United Kingdom was in one hell of a mess in 1979; even if not 'absolutely' at least as far as the electorate were concerned (and that is what matters after all)! So is it likely that any Prime Minister, trying to sort-out the mess, by whatever method, is going to be popular? If a Labour Prime Minister had been elected in 1979 would that leader be any more 'popular'?

                            To my mind, trying to rebuild an economy, by whatever method, will inevitably make a leader unpopular.

                            Did Margaret Thatcher make mistakes? Of course she did. Was she unpopular? Yes. But it doesn't follow that an alternative leader wouldn't have made any mistakes and would have been popular too, does it?
                            WA$.

                            Comment

                            • Creaking Door
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Sep 2006
                              • 9813

                              #74
                              Originally posted by waco View Post
                              Perhaps we are entering the realms of a circular exchange now.
                              Undoubtedly.
                              WA$.

                              Comment

                              • Creaking Door
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Sep 2006
                                • 9813

                                #75
                                Originally posted by waco View Post
                                I think we should have gone for cat and trap on the carriers with f-18's.
                                Neatly destroying any British involvement in our future combat aircraft; BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce will just have to lay-off all those surplus designers and assembly staff and close the factories...

                                ...what did you say earlier.....when they're gone they never come back!

                                Seems it isn't only 'Thatcher' who is intent on 'destroying our industry'!
                                WA$.

                                Comment

                                • waco
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jan 2005
                                  • 590

                                  #76
                                  The F35 is a basket case. Questions still remain if it will ever see service.

                                  The most expensive single weapons system in history and after all these years they still cannot get to operate properly.

                                  Yep.....Margaret would have loved it !

                                  They way costs continue to spiral for the aircraft that does'nt work.....quite frankly we might only be able to buy and operate
                                  so few it will become farcical.

                                  Licensed built in the UK fA-18's would have done nicely.

                                  Nice try CD........Made me smile !

                                  Comment

                                  • 1batfastard
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jan 2013
                                    • 3324

                                    #77
                                    Hi All,
                                    Sorry for being a late comer to the thread but being as you mentioned the Falklands Campaign did anybody ever come across this :- http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/603...entina-bombers

                                    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...k-8604088.html

                                    As far as the F-35 goes IMHO biggest white Elephant ever, we should have either gone with a navelised Typhoon or developed the Sea Harrier/Harrier fleet further. Yes I know all the arguments with my offering but at least we would be able to put aircraft on the new carriers that we have had built or a full compliment on one wile the other is mothballed, not only that we keep the work in the UK for the main part or had European partners as the all singing and dancing F-35 has proved to me more like a postponed show....

                                    Geoff.

                                    Geoff.

                                    Comment

                                    • Moggy C
                                      Moderator
                                      • Jan 2000
                                      • 20537

                                      #78
                                      How do you fit a belly button to a Typhoon?
                                      "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

                                      Comment

                                      • Lincoln 7
                                        Better than Rank 1 user
                                        • Jun 2010
                                        • 8403

                                        #79
                                        Originally posted by Moggy C View Post
                                        How do you fit a belly button to a Typhoon?
                                        Cotton and a sewing needle?..........................

                                        Jim
                                        Lincoln .7
                                        There is no such thing as a problem, just a solution!!

                                        Comment

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