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Are We Slowly Slipping Into World War?

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    #21
    http://live.reuters.com/Event/North_Korea

    N.KOREA SAYS MAY TAKE STRONGER, FURTHER STEPS IF U.S. KEEPS UP HOSTILITY - KCNA

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      #22
      The words "sabres" and "rattling" come to mind.....
      Charlie

      Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

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        #23
        Sure if Private Fraser was here he would be telling us "We're all doomed. Doomed I tell ye" Nothing NK likes better than a bit of rhetoric and bad publicity. Not concerned in the slightest.

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          #24
          Very apt!
          Charlie

          Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

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            #25
            China will not permit North Korea to continue with their programme, to the point of their being able to miniaturise the weapon sufficiently, so as to allow it to be fitted to their delivery vehicle. Even their rocketry has had mixed results.

            South Korea is a very major trading partner for the Chinese, so I don't believe that they will place their already cool relationship with NK, ahead of continued good relations with SK. The ideological 'comeradary' between China and NK is also not what it was. But IMO, China is not keen to see a total collapse of the NK state at the present time, the humanaterian crisis alone would be catastrophic for Them. Personally I think that there is also the threat of a 'scorched earth policy' by the NK armed forces if it is staring at the demise of the regime, and all those connected with it.

            IMO, I don't believe that they have miniaturised the bomb sufficiently, for it to be placed on/in one of their rockets, but I would not be at all surprised, if it turns out that the North Koreans have been receiving external help with their nuclear programme. Pakistan would be my best bet. With NK being a state that has been a 'hermetically sealed' country since the late 40s, what the psychological effect of state collapse would be on the ordinary NK citizen, we can only guess.
            "Behold! The Wings of Horus"

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              #26
              MSR, you are correct. NK did collaborate on the nuclear and rocket testing, last month it was announced over 100 top Iranian nuclear physicists, engineers and other specialists had flown into Pyongyang.

              I guess we in the civilised world just have to sit tight in the knowledge that even Kim Jong Un isn't stupid enough to actually start a war with anyone. If he did, NK would be obliterated and wiped of the map by US forces in the space of a couple of months :diablo: personally, I don't think that's such a bad thing. At least the NK citizens will be a big step closer to freedom.
              Feel free to check out my aviation pictures at http://www.flickr.com/photos/lhr_spotter/ - comments welcome

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                #27
                I visited NK in 1987, and it was one weird experience. I tend to agree with your post. However, I think that the physiological and cultural shock to the ordinary NK citizen, following a sudden collapse of the state itself, would be very profound indeed, and can in no way be compared with the effects of state collapse, on the citizens of the former Communist bloc.

                IMO, there would need to be some kind of transitional change to a post Communist NK, possibly under the auspices of the UN, but I think that it would have to be quite a long period of time for this. There is also the likely negative effect, that a sudden re-unification of Korea would have on the economies of neighbouring Chinese provinces, and on South Korea itself, this would surely mean that a gradual integration would be vital.

                Neil.
                "Behold! The Wings of Horus"

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                  #28
                  Neil during your visit (and I presume you've studied North Korean culture since) do you believe the NK people actually believe the communist propaganda the government force down their throats? I've always doubted whether the citizens truly believe it and only keep quiet due to the threat of being sent to labor camps should they revolt.

                  Especially nowadays given the growing awareness of things such as the internet, mobile phones and personal computers - the NK people can hardly believe they live in the 'land of the free' when just across the border in China everyone has access (albeit restricted in the case of internet) to these things.

                  I doubt the Korean peninsula will ever be united again. I just can't imagine the South Koreans would allow it, SK would have to plunge billions of dollars into bringing the North up to the same standard as the south. The South would be far better off economically without the North holding them back... Think of it like England and Scotland
                  Feel free to check out my aviation pictures at http://www.flickr.com/photos/lhr_spotter/ - comments welcome

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                    #29
                    Matt, bearing in mind that its almost 26 years ago that I visited NK, or the People's Democratic Republic of Korea as they prefer to call it, so I can only relate to what it was like then. During our 24 hour stopover in Beijing, our English tour guide reminded us if the fundamental does and don'ts whilst in NK. We were told, that the citizens were unaware that man had been to the moon, they had no idea about the AIDS problem, or 'western pop groups' and that we were to bear this in mind during our 12 day visit. I can't believe that our NK tour guides, who would have been government appointees, would not have known of these things, in fact, the male guide was quite well informed about 'Led Zeppelin'! So it was difficult to know who to believe. I took the view, as did some others on the trip, that we would not talk about anything to do with the West, unless the NK guides asked us.

                    Kim Il Sung was still at the North Korean helm at that time, so there had been no real changes for many years. If you've never visited NK yourself, its very difficult to explain the Orwellian, monolithic edifice, that is NK state. Of course it was never possible to speak to the 'locals' and none would have spoken English anyway, although sometimes, our guides would introduce us to a seemingly random passer by, and translate their version of polite conversation.

                    I do think that back then, most, if not pretty much all the population, sincerely believed that they lived in a virtual socialist utopia. A popular slogan on posters that we saw was 'We have nothing to envy in all the World' and I honestly think that the NK 'comrades' believed that. Most of the population alive today, have never known anything different to living under the 'loving care' of the 'benevolent' Kims. Despite the endless march of technological progress here in the West, I would still be very surprised, if more than a very few of those 'sealed up' in the socialist paradise, are getting any info from the outside world.

                    I do sense a change coming, under the new Kim. However, IMO I think that any changes that do come, will only be those which are approved by the NK military, as I think that it is they who really rule the country, and not the regime itself, but maybe even they, may be sensing that changes have to come. Will this be done by flirting with the tourist dollar, and getting involved with foreign companies, a la Cuba? or by other, more profound routes? I visited Albania in 1986, and the parallels between the two states was striking. The big difference was although Socialist Albania had isolated itself under the rule of Enver Hoxha, its 'information borders' were somewhat 'porous' I don't think the same can be said of NK. After all, their new, and much trumpeted Internet provider, is totally home grown, and has no connections to the outside world. But I suspect that on the PCs in the 'big houses' in the leafy government suburbs of Pyongyang, doing a Google search for anything, is no problem.

                    Ironically, the new Shard building in London, bears an uncanny resemblance to the giant Ryangyong Hotel in Pyongyang, which in turn emulates Orwell's description of 'The Ministry of Truth' in his epic 1984. Ain't life strange....?
                    "Behold! The Wings of Horus"

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                      #30
                      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21972936

                      I don't want to be a worry monster here but all this sabre rattling is very disconcerting.

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                        #31
                        Don't worry boy.
                        Ask yourself have the North Koreans got any means of delivering a nuclear weapon to the home counties of England, or even any desire to. If the answer is yes, then I'll start worrying.

                        This sort of thing used to happen every week in the 1960's and 70's.

                        A.
                        It is better to be born a beggar than a fool.

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                          #32
                          You said it yourself. Sabre rattling. That's all it is and all for domestic consumption.
                          Charlie

                          Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

                          Comment


                            #33
                            It's not as if homo sapiens is an endangered species....
                            Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups!

                            Comment


                              #34
                              Originally posted by Andy in Beds View Post
                              Don't worry boy.
                              Ask yourself have the North Koreans got any means of delivering a nuclear weapon to the home counties of England, or even any desire to. If the answer is yes, then I'll start worrying.

                              This sort of thing used to happen every week in the 1960's and 70's.

                              A.
                              Ahh, Andy, but things can change overnight, Cuban Crisis, spring to mind?.


                              Jim.
                              Lincoln .7
                              There is no such thing as a problem, just a solution!!

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                                #35
                                Exactly my concern. What if the US decide to neutralize the Koreans before they can do so them selves. The Koreans not having a capability in some ways is potentially more dangerous.
                                Last edited by Deano; 8th April 2013, 13:30. Reason: COC RULE 14

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                                  #36
                                  And all of this is just the sort of reaction the Koreans would welcome. They are doing it to impress their starving populace who would be starving even more but for the $2 billion food aid package agreed with South Korea, which they are unlikely to sacrifice. They might have cut the "hot-line" but they certainly haven't cut the aid line!!
                                  Charlie

                                  Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

                                  Comment


                                    #37
                                    Originally posted by hampden98 View Post
                                    Exactly my concern. What if the US decide to neutralize the Koreans before they can do so them selves. The Koreans not having a capability in some ways is potentially more dangerous.
                                    If it is to be believed, then the USA has itself to blame, look at the stupidity of sending two Stealth Bombers right up to their boarders, intimidating at the least.
                                    I am begining to see why nearly every American owns an Arsenal of weapons.

                                    Jim.
                                    Lincoln .7
                                    There is no such thing as a problem, just a solution!!

                                    Comment


                                      #38
                                      Originally posted by Lincoln 7 View Post
                                      Ahh, Andy, but things can change overnight, Cuban Crisis, spring to mind?.
                                      No, actually not Jim.
                                      How many times exactly did we slip into nuclear war back then?
                                      And it was a damned of a lot more dangerous back then too.
                                      It is better to be born a beggar than a fool.

                                      Comment


                                        #39
                                        Indeed it was. And now the North has "declared a state of war" despite the fact that the war was never formally ended and there has been an armistice only for the last 60 years. Perhaps Mr Kim is unclear about this!
                                        Charlie

                                        Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

                                        Comment


                                          #40
                                          Indeed, Perchance he is.But his new gained power has certainly gone to his head.

                                          Jim.
                                          Lincoln .7
                                          There is no such thing as a problem, just a solution!!

                                          Comment


                                           

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