By: Bob
- 6th October 2012 at 23:06Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Freedom of Information requests sent to all 171 hospital trusts in England and Wales - of which 133 responded - found that one third were not asking patients whether or not they were resident in the UK and therefore eligible for treatment.
The FOI results showed that hospitals had written off at least £40m worth of care given to health tourists over a four year period, a figure that Conservative MP Chris Skidmore said did not reveal the extent of the cost to the NHS.
CD, we'll have to agree to disagree - you feel it isn't worth while to try and plug this fraudulent abuse of the health service while I see people around me suffering due to lack of funds in the NHS....
By: J Boyle
- 6th October 2012 at 23:58Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Even if it costs much more trying to prevent it than the actual ‘health tourism’ costs the NHS?
That's a slippery slope.
So a crook shouldn't be arrested if what he stole costs less than police time necessary to do the case? :rolleyes:
I don't see how asking someone if they have a bit of identification...a drivers license, or even a library card would be that expensive.
What ID do people have to show to get benefits?
If people knew the NHS was asking, it might deter some.
By: Creaking Door
- 7th October 2012 at 00:32Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
CD, we'll have to agree to disagree - you feel it isn't worth while to try and plug this fraudulent abuse of the health service while I see people around me suffering due to lack of funds in the NHS...
As I said I don’t like it any more than you do but I’d rather see £10million in treatment ‘stolen’ from the NHS each year than spend £100million trying to stop it.
Look at the rough figures I posted earlier; just one minute checking identity for each prescription would cost the NHS £100milllion!
By: Creaking Door
- 7th October 2012 at 00:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That's a slippery slope.
So a crook shouldn't be arrested if what he stole costs less than police time necessary to do the case? :rolleyes:
Well, I’m sure thousands-upon-thousands of crimes go un-investigated and unprosecuted in the UK every year based on economics.
Maybe it is a slippery-slope but the last thing the NHS needs now is any more levels of bureaucracy. Sure, it doesn’t sound too expensive but this is just the sort of thing that can cost a fortune without anybody really noticing; just one minute added to every NHS visit would cost hundreds of millions.
I don’t like it as it seems ‘wrong’ but there it is; sometimes the best way to save money for the patients who are entitled to treatment is to ignore those, very few, that aren’t!
By: charliehunt
- 7th October 2012 at 06:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Notwithstanding the debate going on about the £10 million, a paltry figure when set against the billions which should be being saved elsewhere, but surely every citizen of the EU has the right to medical treatment in member countries. As I have pointed out thousands of British citizens enjoy the excellent healthcare in other ember states.
I really don't follow the bursting blood vessel arguments here, fuelled by a typical Panorama report. I personally know 5 people, and there are no doubt countless others, who have travelled to France where they claim to get better treatment than here.
A more balanced report would have been welcomed, but that's hardly Panorama's remit, unfortunately.
By: paul178
- 7th October 2012 at 10:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
People seem to have £40,000,000 fixed in their minds. That I am sure is just the tip of the iceberg. The problem is with no accounting or checking how do they know? Its the same with the illegals, no one knows the true figure for that either.
By: Lincoln 7
- 7th October 2012 at 11:43Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE=charliehunt;1936962]Notwithstanding the debate going on about the £10 million, a paltry figure when set against the billions which should be being saved elsewhere, but surely every citizen of the EU has the right to medical treatment in member countries. As I have pointed out thousands of British citizens enjoy the excellent healthcare in other ember states.
I personally know 5 people, and there are no doubt countless others, who have travelled to France where they claim to get better treatment than here.
I take it that those who went to France, also India, received their treatment FREE?, as our NHS treatment is?.
By: Lincoln 7
- 7th October 2012 at 11:48Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
People seem to have £40,000,000 fixed in their minds. That I am sure is just the tip of the iceberg. The problem is with no accounting or checking how do they know? Its the same with the illegals, no one knows the true figure for that either.
Oh I bet they have a good idea Paul, but they won't admit it, as it would be seen as a failure being unable to control the illegals,but Hey, Ho, at 71, I am still paying Income Tax:), to allow them to have a better quality of life, than I bet you, I, and many others live.
Jim.
Lincoln .7
By: charliehunt
- 7th October 2012 at 13:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE=Lincoln 7;1937018]
Notwithstanding the debate going on about the £10 million, a paltry figure when set against the billions which should be being saved elsewhere, but surely every citizen of the EU has the right to medical treatment in member countries. As I have pointed out thousands of British citizens enjoy the excellent healthcare in other ember states.
I personally know 5 people, and there are no doubt countless others, who have travelled to France where they claim to get better treatment than here.
I take it that those who went to France, also India, received their treatment FREE?, as our NHS treatment is?.
By: J Boyle
- 7th October 2012 at 17:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Can we agree by saying that there is something wrong with a bureaucracy when it's so big and cumbersome that it can't (or it's not worth the effort to) stop people from abusing it?
By: Creaking Door
- 7th October 2012 at 18:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It all comes down to cost; checking identity is expensive.
Take a look at the National Identity Card scheme that the UK tried to introduce to stop exactly this sort of fraud; it was abandoned in 2010 after nearly eight years of work and (at least) £250million of taxpayer’s money had been spent. The predicted costs of the scheme had ballooned to £4,500million!
By: Creaking Door
- 7th October 2012 at 18:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
People seem to have £40,000,000 fixed in their minds. That I am sure is just the tip of the iceberg.
Maybe it is the tip of the iceberg but you could look at it another way...
...let’s say the fraud is one-hundred times worse than the £40million over four years.....or £1billion per year.
That means more that 99% of the NHS annual budget of £104billion is spent on people who are entitled to it. I call that pretty good for a totally unregulated system.
By: charliehunt
- 7th October 2012 at 18:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Can we agree by saying that there is something wrong with a bureaucracy when it's so big and cumbersome that it can't (or it's not worth the effort to) stop people from abusing it?
I can certainly agree with that comment and it applies to welfare and tax as well. The last government built and enlarged the bureaucracy to such an extent that it is almost impossible to change it. But changed it must be before we are all sucked dry.
Posts: 3,566
By: Bob - 6th October 2012 at 23:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
CD, we'll have to agree to disagree - you feel it isn't worth while to try and plug this fraudulent abuse of the health service while I see people around me suffering due to lack of funds in the NHS....
Posts: 9,827
By: J Boyle - 6th October 2012 at 23:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That's a slippery slope.
So a crook shouldn't be arrested if what he stole costs less than police time necessary to do the case? :rolleyes:
I don't see how asking someone if they have a bit of identification...a drivers license, or even a library card would be that expensive.
What ID do people have to show to get benefits?
If people knew the NHS was asking, it might deter some.
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 7th October 2012 at 00:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As I said I don’t like it any more than you do but I’d rather see £10million in treatment ‘stolen’ from the NHS each year than spend £100million trying to stop it.
Look at the rough figures I posted earlier; just one minute checking identity for each prescription would cost the NHS £100milllion!
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 7th October 2012 at 00:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well, I’m sure thousands-upon-thousands of crimes go un-investigated and unprosecuted in the UK every year based on economics.
Maybe it is a slippery-slope but the last thing the NHS needs now is any more levels of bureaucracy. Sure, it doesn’t sound too expensive but this is just the sort of thing that can cost a fortune without anybody really noticing; just one minute added to every NHS visit would cost hundreds of millions.
I don’t like it as it seems ‘wrong’ but there it is; sometimes the best way to save money for the patients who are entitled to treatment is to ignore those, very few, that aren’t!
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 7th October 2012 at 06:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Notwithstanding the debate going on about the £10 million, a paltry figure when set against the billions which should be being saved elsewhere, but surely every citizen of the EU has the right to medical treatment in member countries. As I have pointed out thousands of British citizens enjoy the excellent healthcare in other ember states.
I really don't follow the bursting blood vessel arguments here, fuelled by a typical Panorama report. I personally know 5 people, and there are no doubt countless others, who have travelled to France where they claim to get better treatment than here.
A more balanced report would have been welcomed, but that's hardly Panorama's remit, unfortunately.
Posts: 2,841
By: paul178 - 7th October 2012 at 10:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
People seem to have £40,000,000 fixed in their minds. That I am sure is just the tip of the iceberg. The problem is with no accounting or checking how do they know? Its the same with the illegals, no one knows the true figure for that either.
Posts: 8,306
By: Lincoln 7 - 7th October 2012 at 11:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE=charliehunt;1936962]Notwithstanding the debate going on about the £10 million, a paltry figure when set against the billions which should be being saved elsewhere, but surely every citizen of the EU has the right to medical treatment in member countries. As I have pointed out thousands of British citizens enjoy the excellent healthcare in other ember states.
I personally know 5 people, and there are no doubt countless others, who have travelled to France where they claim to get better treatment than here.
I take it that those who went to France, also India, received their treatment FREE?, as our NHS treatment is?.
Jim.
Lincoln .7
Posts: 8,306
By: Lincoln 7 - 7th October 2012 at 11:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Oh I bet they have a good idea Paul, but they won't admit it, as it would be seen as a failure being unable to control the illegals,but Hey, Ho, at 71, I am still paying Income Tax:), to allow them to have a better quality of life, than I bet you, I, and many others live.
Jim.
Lincoln .7
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 7th October 2012 at 13:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE=Lincoln 7;1937018]
Yes - otherwise what's the point in going?
Posts: 9,827
By: J Boyle - 7th October 2012 at 17:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Can we agree by saying that there is something wrong with a bureaucracy when it's so big and cumbersome that it can't (or it's not worth the effort to) stop people from abusing it?
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 7th October 2012 at 18:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It all comes down to cost; checking identity is expensive.
Take a look at the National Identity Card scheme that the UK tried to introduce to stop exactly this sort of fraud; it was abandoned in 2010 after nearly eight years of work and (at least) £250million of taxpayer’s money had been spent. The predicted costs of the scheme had ballooned to £4,500million!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8707355.stm
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 7th October 2012 at 18:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Maybe it is the tip of the iceberg but you could look at it another way...
...let’s say the fraud is one-hundred times worse than the £40million over four years.....or £1billion per year.
That means more that 99% of the NHS annual budget of £104billion is spent on people who are entitled to it. I call that pretty good for a totally unregulated system.
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 7th October 2012 at 18:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I can certainly agree with that comment and it applies to welfare and tax as well. The last government built and enlarged the bureaucracy to such an extent that it is almost impossible to change it. But changed it must be before we are all sucked dry.