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By: - 12th September 2012 at 18:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I was listening to excerpts on Radio 4 on the way home and it was incredible the depths the police plummeted to in order to discredit those who died. The ground itself was not fit for purpose, police falsifying statements, mismanagement of emergency services. A catalogue of incompetence and negligence.
Let's hope the guilty get what they deserve.
By: - 12th September 2012 at 19:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Why so long !!!!
By: - 12th September 2012 at 19:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Perhaps now we can let it rest ?
I found Cameron making an apology for Hillsborough, as tasteless as Blair's
apology over the slave trade.
It was a terrible tragedy there can be no denying, but the fans absolved of
any blame ?
By: - 12th September 2012 at 19:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Why should they let it rest? 96 people died because of other's incompetence. Why would those guilty of such negligence on such a large scale be allowed to get away with it?
I have to say that CMD's apology was one today's more surprising events.
By: - 12th September 2012 at 19:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Alan, I don't agree with letting it rest until the guilty(who are still alive) pay for their actions. 23years of mud slinging and cover ups must be faced and rectified. Although that does not bring back the dead who were unjustly vilified!
By: - 12th September 2012 at 20:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm a Liverpool fan, and I want to be a police constable. I am so glad to hear of the progress that has been made for the victims and their families. South Yorkshire Police let everyone down and those responsible should be held accountable.
By: - 12th September 2012 at 20:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Perhaps now we can let it rest ?I found Cameron making an apology for Hillsborough, as tasteless as Blair's
apology over the slave trade.It was a terrible tragedy there can be no denying, but the fans absolved of
any blame ?
The fans were guilty of attending a football match, end of.
The ground was wrong, crowd control non-existent, trying to pack the largest group of fans into the least accessible part of the ground, that was before the problem developed.
Certain media, senior police, politicians even the "justice" system conspire in one of the nastiest peace time "pass the buck and cover your a**e" exercises ever seen and you say let it rest.
By: - 12th September 2012 at 21:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A lot to read but worth it.
By: - 12th September 2012 at 21:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The fans were guilty of attending a football match, end of.
And therein lies the inherent problem with calls for ‘justice’. Because there can only ever be one side that can bear the responsibility, and therefore any blame, and it isn’t the fans. The fans, as you say, are absolved of any responsibility whatsoever and therefore of any ‘guilt’.
Hillsborough was unprecedented in British football disasters, but probably not in world football disasters, and certainly not in other large-crowd events; but of course that doesn’t let the ‘guilty’ off-the-hook and the ‘innocent’ are still absolved from any responsibility.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Certainly lives could have been saved, certainly mistakes were made (or ‘failures’ to use the modern phrase) but we have to be realistic about what happened and what would have needed to have happened to have saved any of those lives. And ultimately it will probably come down to cost; cost that will be borne by those that buy the tickets.
The important thing is that lessons have been learnt (we hope) and that a future disaster on this scale is less likely, not impossible, for one will surely happen again.
‘Justice’ will not bring any of the lost back, nor probably will it help to learn the lessons; ‘the truth’ will not bring any of the lost back either but it will certainly help to learn the lessons.
Every element of any ‘cover-up’ is an absolute disgrace and here there certainly is scope for some punishment, even ‘justice’.
How would I feel if it was my family-member lost? Exactly the same as the Hillsborough relatives probably do.
By: - 12th September 2012 at 21:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
" lessons have been learnt" is trotted out every time something goes wrong be it in Hospitals,Social Services,Police and the list goes on and on.
One day I hope in my lifetime that phrase will actually mean what it says!
I watched The local BBC News tonight about this
The spokeman for the Hospital said " lessons have been learnt" twice during the interview. So thats alright then!
By: - 12th September 2012 at 23:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Life is risk! Airliners have crashed, airliners will crash again; that is a certain fact! If your son or daughter is killed in a holiday plane crash who is ‘responsible’? After-the-fact we’d do anything to have them back, after-the-fact they’d have done anything not to have taken that flight...
...anything but miss going on holiday of course! Life is risk!
Of course, lessons will be learned, but after we’ve paid for our ticket (the cheapest ticket), the airline is wholly responsible for our safety, aren’t they? And we are totally absolved of any responsibility, aren’t we?
To a lesser degree, obviously, I share the anger of the Hillsborough families over the cover-up and I have the greatest sympathy for their loss but I hope that the two causes, ‘truth’ and ‘justice’, do not become blurred. I trust nobody at Hillsborough that day was trying to kill their family; mistakes, failure and responsibility do not necessarily equate to negligence.
The fact that more lives could have been saved doesn’t mean that, without hindsight, there was negligence either; disasters, even disasters that are trained-for, are rarely ever responded-to in an optimal way. Calls for ‘more’ or ‘better’ ignore the tens-of-thousands of similar events that pass-off without any incident and the ‘more-and-better’, while it would probably save more lives, would still be found to ‘could-have-done-better’...
...and the ‘more-and-better’ will certainly have cost more. Cost that will have to be borne by the ticket-buyers.
By: - 12th September 2012 at 23:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Life is indeed "risky" but I would suggest that people should be able to go to a football match without the risk of being crushed to death. We all take risks in all that we do but there are some things that should be inherently less risky than others. I would suggest that standing on a terrace to watch a football match would one of those things.
As former attendee at many large football matches in the 1980s and been in some fairly scary crushes, I can't help thinking that there but for the Grace of God go I.
By: - 12th September 2012 at 23:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
People should be (and are) able to go to a football match with a low risk of being crushed to death. ;)
The only way to avoid any risk is not to go.
By: - 12th September 2012 at 23:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sorry but these police who altered and changed evidence should be found if still alive and put on trial for perverting the course of justice and jailed... Otherwise you have in one destroyed the principal of law, order and justice in the UK.
By: - 12th September 2012 at 23:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
But was the ‘course of justice’ perverted? That sort-of presupposes that somebody was ‘guilty’ of a crime doesn’t it?
Many, many factors coincided to cause this disaster and not all of them were the responsibility of the Police, or even under their control; so why were the Police trying to deflect blame? Was it because they knew that, ultimately, they’d bear the brunt of the blame anyway; caught between the fans on one side, and those more distant from events, on the other?
For example, why was the game even held at Hillsborough?
By: - 12th September 2012 at 23:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
TonyT I agree 100% with your post. They are bent coppers trying to save their own skins. Lets see them hunted down and in the dock. Otherwise every statement in every case could be challenged on the grounds that it has been changed to secure a conviction. The "Hillsborough Defence" nice work for the legal profession!
By: - 13th September 2012 at 07:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The police cover-up must have been managed from above, otherwise the upper echelons would have made sure the lowest ranks took the blame.
Let's hope some of the ordinary coppers involved won't hesitate to name their superiors who gave the orders.
But I suspect they'll choose some middle-management copper who has since died, and all say "It was him, M'lud!"...
By: - 13th September 2012 at 08:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, let’s have a jolly-good witch-hunt until we can find somebody to pin it on; somebody responsible, somebody to blame, somebody to punish and that’ll be ‘justice’ for the ninety-six that died.
The ninety-six didn’t die because of a Police cover-up and, while the cover-up should be investigated, it is essential that the investigation separates those responsible for the cover-up and those responsible for the deaths. In my view they are not the same but that sort of ‘detail’ looks destined to be overlooked in the demands for ‘justice’.
The Hillsborough disaster led to many changes. The design of all football stadiums were changed and the fences taken-down; why were there fences in the first place? The Police were criticized for focussing too-much on possible crowd-trouble and for not recognising the crush in its early stages; why? Hillsborough (and Liverpool) had apparently experienced two previous crush incidents in 1987 and 1988 and yet the 1989 match was scheduled without any changes to the ground; why?
In a way I’m not surprised there was a cover-up; I wouldn’t have wanted to be in charge of crowd-safety that day but somebody had to be...
...and we couldn’t stop the business of playing football could we?
By: - 13th September 2012 at 08:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
For example, why was the game even held at Hillsborough?
That is one of the very uncomfortable questions that some would rather were never asked.
LFC objected to Hillsborough and particularly the Leppings Lane end on safety grounds.
Hillsborough's safety certificate was limited and the football league limited capacity at the ground until safety improvements were carried out.
The FA selected the ground and told the clubs that they played there or dropped out.
Like many others, I know the police come out of this badly, but were did the cover up originate?. I don't believe that individual coppers all set out to rewrite the story before it was even published, so where did the instruction come from?
By: - 13th September 2012 at 09:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, let’s have a jolly-good witch-hunt until we can find somebody to pin it on; somebody responsible, somebody to blame, somebody to punish and that’ll be ‘justice’ for the ninety-six that died....>>The ninety-six didn’t die because of a Police cover-up and, while the cover-up should be investigated, it is essential that the investigation separates those responsible for the cover-up and those responsible for the deaths. ...........>>
Quite right, and as I said before, the football fans still come out looking
whiter than white. People seem to have short memories as to the
behaviour of (some) football fans.
Now it's all going to be about who can put in the biggest claim for
compensation. Where will that money come from ?
Posts: 2,841
By: paul178 - 12th September 2012 at 18:21
96 dead 41 who might have been saved 116 witness statments altered by the filth(police insults the honest coppers)
Arrest those that caused this and jail them for manslaughter and forgery.
As for the Sun what do you expect from that slimy lot of scum?
No I am not a Liverpool supporter or even a football fan but I want to see justice done at long last.
Is that to much to ask?