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WWII Invasion - without the US ?

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  • bazv
    olde rigger
    • Feb 2005
    • 5886

    #41
    WW2 was a war of attrition,IMHO there is no way we could have won without the U.S being involved,as I posted previously - the U.S was also supplying the soviets with war materiel...it is possible that the soviets might have fought off the nazis due to distance/land area/weight of numbers etc but as others have posted - it is likely that europe would have been soviet dominated eventually - so 'we' would not have 'won'.

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    • roadracer
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Feb 2009
      • 657

      #42
      Originally posted by Moggy C View Post
      Indeed, why would they have needed a C47 if there was no invasion of Europe possible?

      Yorks are the obvious answer.

      Moggy
      Europe would certainly have been difficult if not impossible given the serious manpower issues faced by the British and Commonwealth forces later in the war, But my thoughts were also of the sterling work performed by the C-47 in both the Mediterranean and Far East theatres.

      Yorks ? Wouldnt that have taken much needed production capacity away from Lancasters ? What about modified Sterlings , could production have continued without causing problems to other aircraft production?

      Just to clarify, my responses were not motivated by any ideas that all British Aircraft were inferior, far from it . However I do think that when it came to Tanks, light armour , some infantry weapons and Naval aircraft the British fell far behind. Without American supplies and designs, they would have been in serious trouble.

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      • Al
        Al
        Embittered old curmudgeon
        • Feb 2010
        • 1216

        #43
        Don't forget that the USA didn't give the UK the 'tools to do the job' for any altruistic reason - the sold them at a very high price.

        Part of that high price was the break-up of the British Empire, so that the US could gain access to those markets.

        Great Britain was the only European nation to stop the Nazis, and was actually on the offensive by the time the US entered WW2. The cost was severe though, leaving the nation practically bankrupt, while arms and material production brought the US out of the financial crash and into prosperity.

        The rest of Europe owed the UK a huge debt of gratitude for the price it paid to set them all free, but instead, that ingrate De Gaulle said "NON!" to Britain's initial efforts to join the Common Market...
        Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups!

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        • Lincoln 7
          Better than Rank 1 user
          • Jun 2010
          • 8403

          #44
          Originally posted by roadracer View Post

          Just to clarify, my responses were not motivated by any ideas that all British Aircraft were inferior, far from it . However I do think that when it came to Tanks, light armour , some infantry weapons and Naval aircraft the British fell far behind. Without American supplies and designs, they would have been in serious trouble.
          Sorry, I can't agree re the U.S. tanks, of which the Shermans were built in huge numbers, One swipe from a Tiger with it's modified FLAK 88 AA Gun, was enough to wipe out any Sherman. No match whatsoever, NOW, when it comes to being an equal Sherman, re badged as the Firefly, they could fire a 17 pounder A.P. round, that could do serious damage to a Tiger, however, the turret had to be modified on the firefly due to the recoil.
          As with us, not everything that the U.S. provided did the job, but as they say, "Every little helps".
          Jim.
          Lincoln .7
          Last edited by Moggy C; 15th December 2011, 11:00.
          There is no such thing as a problem, just a solution!!

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          • Lincoln 7
            Better than Rank 1 user
            • Jun 2010
            • 8403

            #45
            Originally posted by Al View Post
            The rest of Europe owed the UK a huge debt of gratitude for the price it paid to set them all free, but instead, that ingrate De Gaulle said "NON!" to Britain's initial efforts to join the Common Market...
            Absolutely spot in I.M.O. also Al. The French and Germans have never got on well with us Brits,even after saving their bacon more than once.

            Jim.

            Lincoln .7
            Last edited by Moggy C; 15th December 2011, 11:01.
            There is no such thing as a problem, just a solution!!

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            • Bmused55
              Aaahh Emu!
              • Oct 2003
              • 11136

              #46
              Originally posted by Al View Post
              Don't forget that the USA didn't give the UK the 'tools to do the job' for any altruistic reason - the sold them at a very high price.
              Part of that high price was the break-up of the British Empire, so that the US could gain access to those markets.
              .....The rest of Europe owed the UK a huge debt of gratitude for the price it paid to set them all free, but instead, that ingrate De Gaulle said "NON!" to Britain's initial efforts to join the Common Market...
              Best bit of common sense I've read here in a while.
              Spot on!

              It's quite ironic, that the very Empire others sought to break up is the very reason Britain was able to put up such a fight and ultimately defeat the Nazis
              Last edited by Bmused55; 15th December 2011, 10:22.
              Bmused55

              Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below and smite thee.

              My Blog
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              • bazv
                olde rigger
                • Feb 2005
                • 5886

                #47
                Nobody said that the U.S gave us the stuff for nothing...as previously posted by another forumite - even just the fuel supply (esp high octane) was a life saver...same again many years later for the Falklands...without the supply of U.S fuel at Wideawake...could we have done it ????

                Comment

                • Moggy C
                  Moderator
                  • Jan 2000
                  • 20534

                  #48
                  Originally posted by Lincoln 7 View Post
                  The French and Germans have never got on well with us Brits,even after saving their bacon more than once.

                  Remind me when we saved the German's bacon

                  Moggy
                  "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

                  Comment

                  • Lincoln 7
                    Better than Rank 1 user
                    • Jun 2010
                    • 8403

                    #49
                    By forcing them to surrender, thus saving more deaths, and their bacon.
                    Jim.
                    Lincoln .7
                    Last edited by Deano; 15th December 2011, 14:00. Reason: CoC Rule 15
                    There is no such thing as a problem, just a solution!!

                    Comment

                    • roadracer
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Feb 2009
                      • 657

                      #50
                      Originally posted by Lincoln 7 View Post
                      Sorry, I can't agree re the U.S. tanks, of which the Shermans were built in huge numbers, One swipe from a Tiger with it's modified FLAK 88 AA Gun, was enough to wipe out any Sherman....
                      True, the Sherman was far from perfect, But was the best the Western allies had in 42, just not really up to the job by 44. I bet that the genuis who decided that it was acceptable to lose 4 Shermans to 1 Tiger never rode into battle in one against a Tiger....BUT, far better to be in a Sherman that had some chance against a Panzer III or IV than a Crusader, didnt need a 88 for those , a catapult was almost enough !

                      But then things didnt really get better with British Tanks untill the advent of the Comet, bit on the late side though !!

                      Comment

                      • Lincoln 7
                        Better than Rank 1 user
                        • Jun 2010
                        • 8403

                        #51
                        roadracer, A crusader COULD knock out a Tiger. The Tigers had a "Soft spot" at the rear, the trouble is, is that the Crusader had to be behind the Tiger to effect this shot, but it was possible, Thankfully the Firefly addressed the situation.

                        Jim.

                        Lincoln .7
                        There is no such thing as a problem, just a solution!!

                        Comment

                        • roadracer
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Feb 2009
                          • 657

                          #52
                          Originally posted by Lincoln 7 View Post
                          roadracer, A crusader COULD knock out a Tiger. The Tigers had a "Soft spot" at the rear, the trouble is, is that the Crusader had to be behind the Tiger to effect this shot, but it was possible, Thankfully the Firefly addressed the situation.

                          Jim.

                          Lincoln .7
                          Jim,

                          So could a Boys anti-tank rifle if it got its shot in, in the right place. In fact it might be a better option than the Crusader , at least there was a better chance of one man getting behind a Tiger and stopping it without the deaths of the 20 or more men who would have died to get a Crusader behind it with its pop gun !

                          Shame they didnt develop the Comet a bit quicker !

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