Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

WWII Invasion - without the US ?

Collapse
X
Collapse
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • waco
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jan 2005
    • 590

    WWII Invasion - without the US ?

    In another thread I have come across a couple of posters who believe that a successful invasion of Europe could have been achieved without the United States of America.

    I think that this absolute tosh.

    Without help from the US in my opinion the allies would probably have lost the war.

    Amongst other things I doubt we would have been stong enough economically to continue with the fight during the early 1940's without American economic assistance let alone militerily. The UK owes a huge debt of gratitude to the US and Presdident Rosevelt in particular.

    OK, I appreciate that Hollywood would have it that the US won the war by itself. Rubbish of course. However wthout the US we would now be speaking either German or Russian.
  • j_jza80
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Apr 2011
    • 1546

    #2
    The population of the Axis countries would have been circa 600 million, while allied countries without the US would be 2-3 times that amount (at least) so man power easily goes to the Allies.

    By 1941, Germany had used much of its valuable/necessary raw materials. Even without US assistance, we had access to a huge wealth of precious materials (India being a huge resource)

    Japan would have struggled to fully exploit china, given the size of China and it's population and how small the Japanese population was.

    I'm not saying that we would definately have been successful, but I have no doubt that eventually we would have been able to launch full scale invasions in Europe and the far east.

    I definately welcome US assistance though. They fought very tough fronts in much of the world, and made huge sacrifices in doing so. Their dominance ushered in the end of our Empire (which was inevitable anyway, as with all empires) I dare say that their involvement reduced the potential
    Ength of the war significantly.
    Last edited by Deano; 12th December 2011, 02:24. Reason: CoC Rule 15

    Comment

    • bazv
      olde rigger
      • Feb 2005
      • 5886

      #3
      The USA was supplying us with crucial war material Long before they joined the war,IMO if the US had not entered the war then the outcome would have been very different...remember they were supplying the soviets as well

      rgds baz

      Comment

      • waco
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2005
        • 590

        #4
        j_jza80

        In 1943 German production was still increasing year on year.........

        Have a read of Albert Spier's book.

        Comment

        • j_jza80
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Apr 2011
          • 1546

          #5
          Sorry, I was more specifically referring to pre '41, German shortages due to huge production increases and stretched supply lines on the mainland.
          Last edited by Deano; 12th December 2011, 02:26. Reason: CoC Rule 15

          Comment

          • j_jza80
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Apr 2011
            • 1546

            #6
            Originally posted by bazv View Post
            The USA was supplying us with crucial war material Long before they joined the war,IMO if the US had not entered the war then the outcome would have been very different...remember they were supplying the soviets as well

            rgds baz
            Had the US not come to our aid, we would have potentially been able to provide troops and supplies to the Soviets from India.

            Comment

            • waco
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jan 2005
              • 590

              #7
              j_jza80

              Sorry but that really is rubbish.

              Without the "unoffical" assistance from the States we would have lost.

              The U-boats would have won the battle of the Atlantic. No fuel for us and game over.

              We had no troops ourselves after Dunkirk nor any supplies.

              We only managed to stay in war production thanks to materials that came over the Atlantc from North America.

              Comment

              • Bmused55
                Aaahh Emu!
                • Oct 2003
                • 11136

                #8
                Waco:

                Seems you've already made up your mind, rubbishing everyone's opinion that is contrary to yours.
                Why bother opening a discussion thread?
                Bmused55

                Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below and smite thee.

                My Blog
                My Designs

                Comment

                • Moggy C
                  Moderator
                  • Jan 2000
                  • 20534

                  #9
                  Without the US there would have been a Western Front stalemate with the Axis on the far side of the channel and UK and Commonwealth / Empire on this side facing each other, neither able to mount a successful invasion.

                  Because of the shortage of supplies Bomber Command would never have become as strong as it did, but would still have been an ongoing pain for the Nazi war machine.

                  Meanwhile on the Eastern Front the Soviets would eventually have prevailed by sheer weight of numbers, pushing the Germans back and finally taking Berlin unaided. The only way this scenario could have changed is is Germany had succeeded in building the Atom Bomb before being overrun.

                  All of continental Europe would then have become subjugated by the Soviets, whose inevitable next target would have been the UK

                  Moggy
                  "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

                  Comment

                  • tornado64
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Apr 2010
                    • 1353

                    #10
                    Originally posted by waco View Post
                    However wthout the US we would now be speaking either German .
                    sorry but we were already speaking a form of german . english is at least partly derived from anglo saxon braught over here by the people of the angle and saxony areas in germany !!

                    Comment

                    • tornado64
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Apr 2010
                      • 1353

                      #11
                      it is tricky we had very little in the way of decent armour ( or aircraft to be honest ) compared to germany and the numbers were nowhere near that available to germany

                      the germans were already occupying france and the channel isles so i for one very much doubt we;d have held them for long

                      couple that to most food being imported ( about 60 % or so ) the old saying an army marches on its stomach could well apply

                      also as mentioned germany was very close to having the atom bomb if not for the telemark raid

                      the russians may well have won over by numbers and sheer bloodiness but doubtfull it would have saved us

                      there's one thing for sure if we had have been in a winning position it would probbably have been the 39-59 war with much heavier losses

                      Comment

                      • inkworm
                        Rank outsider
                        • Jan 2010
                        • 1264

                        #12
                        There may well have been a token second front opened up on France's shores, however most of Europe would probably have ended up paying lip service to Russia. The war in North Africa had been won and it is conceivable that Italy could have been liberated.

                        The question could also be posed that the US only got involved due to the initial declaration by Japan, then it would be a case of looking at the Japanese expansion plans in the far east, if Allied resources weren't tied up in the Far East then there was all the manpower and resources of India, Australia, New Zealand to call upon which could have tipped it back in our favour.
                        Push enough pixels around and it'll look like an aeroplane profile.

                        Comment

                        • Bmused55
                          Aaahh Emu!
                          • Oct 2003
                          • 11136

                          #13
                          Originally posted by inkworm View Post
                          .... if Allied resources weren't tied up in the Far East then there was all the manpower and resources of India, Australia, New Zealand to call upon which could have tipped it back in our favour.
                          Don't forget Canada. She declared war on the Axis powers a week after Britain.
                          Bmused55

                          Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below and smite thee.

                          My Blog
                          My Designs

                          Comment

                          • j_jza80
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Apr 2011
                            • 1546

                            #14
                            Originally posted by waco View Post
                            j_jza80

                            Sorry but that really is rubbish.

                            Without the "unoffical" assistance from the States we would have lost.

                            The U-boats would have won the battle of the Atlantic. No fuel for us and game over.

                            We had no troops ourselves after Dunkirk nor any supplies.

                            We only managed to stay in war production thanks to materials that came over the Atlantc from North America.
                            If there was no US aid, there wouldn't have been a battle of the atlantic!

                            Comment

                            • inkworm
                              Rank outsider
                              • Jan 2010
                              • 1264

                              #15
                              I didn't intentionally mention Canada as I'm under the impression (though I could be wrong) that their role wouldn't have altered greatly had there been no Far East campaign and they were not directly under threat as Australia was and India potentially was.

                              But while on the subject of the Battle of the Atlantic, there was still movement between Canada and the UK.
                              Push enough pixels around and it'll look like an aeroplane profile.

                              Comment

                              • Deano
                                Moderator
                                • Aug 2003
                                • 3098

                                #16
                                j_jza80

                                That's like saying if the sun doesn't come up tomorrow there'll be no day. You're not really covering yourself in glory here.

                                There is no way we would have won the war without the USA, we needed their raw material resources as well as oil & fighting machine. Remember Germany obtained alot of their raw materials from Scandinavia in the early part of the war. Without the US the British Empire in the East would have crumbled, the Japs would have run through Burma & India (look what happened to Singapore). Without the US (& Canada of course) there would have been no successful D-Day landings and thus a strengthening of the German stronghold on the Northern coast of France. The Americans (& Canadian, NZ, Australian) played a massive role in the war, of which probably couldn't have been replaced by Britain & France alone, and in a funny kind of way we have the Japs to thank for that, because without Pearl Harbour the Americans might well have stayed out of the war.
                                http://www.findmadeleine.com

                                Comment

                                • Dr Strangelove
                                  Doktor Merkwrdigliebe
                                  • May 2008
                                  • 1384

                                  #17
                                  WWII Invasion - without the US ?
                                  Pains me to say it, but in my opinion Britain would've been royaly screwed without the yanks, just by the fact of shear numbers & manufacturing capabilties alone is a good enough argument, before getting into any other details.

                                  Equally, without the Britain & it's traditional allies, the US wouldn't have been able to launch a successful invasion either.

                                  Sort of "one all" if you ask me.
                                  Sometimes it's better to be a bumblebee than it is to be Professor Heinkel.

                                  Comment

                                  • roadracer
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Feb 2009
                                    • 657

                                    #18
                                    What doesnt seem to have been considered is the political effect of the "discriminating" neutrality practiced by the US prior to their entry into the war and the moral support that this provided to those opposing the Axis. If this support hadnt been provided and if the US hadnt entered the war, then surely it is possible that the resolve of the UK and the commonwealth would have suffered, never mind the effect it could have had on Russia. It is surely possible or maybe even probable that Stalin would have fallen and a peace would have been negotiated with the Nazi's if , for instance,they had captured Moscow. Then the entire might of the Nazi war machine would have been cut lose on the UK, and I doubt if she could have held out a 2nd time. Could the RAF have continued using Blenheims for much longer on raids into France ? Would El Alamein have been won without Grants and Shermans ? If it hadnt and Egypt had fallen , would the Uk have been willing or able to go on fighting? Would Churchill have remained as PM? There was after all, an element within the "ruling" classes who were sympathetic to Hitler's viewpoints.

                                    Without the direct involvement of the US an invasion of Europe or anywhere else would have been virtually impossible.Lets not forget the dangerously low manpower levels that were impacting UK infantry regiments by the time they got as far as the Rhine, can you imagine how far they and the commonwealth forces, minus the US , would have got into France before reaching those critical levels ?

                                    j_jza80 , will just say that you need to do a bit more research.

                                    Comment

                                    • j_jza80
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Apr 2011
                                      • 1546

                                      #19
                                      Research events that never took place?

                                      Come back to reality! You are making assumptions based upon us conducting the war in the same manner as we would have done with the Americans. That is ridiculous, every change would have reactions that would affect events in ways that you nor I could really begin to comprehend.

                                      Everything in this thread is conjecture, so don't try telling me that there's no way that we could have beaten the Germans. No point that you make is any more valid than mine.

                                      If there's anything that our history proves, it's that the UK has a habit of getting out of tight spots!
                                      Last edited by Deano; 13th December 2011, 23:55. Reason: CoC Rule 15

                                      Comment

                                      • Moggy C
                                        Moderator
                                        • Jan 2000
                                        • 20534

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by roadracer View Post
                                        Could the RAF have continued using Blenheims for much longer on raids into France ?
                                        Why would they?

                                        The Mosquito was a much better aircraft and owed absolutely nothing to USA input.

                                        Moggy
                                        "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

                                        Comment

                                        Unconfigured Ad Widget

                                        Collapse

                                         

                                        Working...
                                        X