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  • Moggy C
    Moderator
    • Jan 2000
    • 20534

    Chippy video for Janie

    http://tinyurl.com/7tnxq

    Moggy
    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.
  • galdri
    Half Wit
    • Jan 2000
    • 1360

    #2
    Oh dear That was a close one

    Bet some brown pants resaulted from this incident.
    Those who can.....do,
    Those who can not.....teach (that's me!)

    Comment

    • Swift
      BAD2 WARTON
      • Jul 2004
      • 207

      #3
      Well what a sight that must have been ,probably one to tell the grandkids about!
      Steve Young - 'Youngy'.
      8th April 1969 - 24th July 2005.

      Comment

      • Chipmunk Carol
        Surly bond slipper
        • Aug 2003
        • 2689

        #4
        I cannot see the link throught the firewall, but it may be the same video shown to me earlier in the day. If it is the one of some skydivers and a Chipmunk. THAT IS NOT ME!!

        Did you notice that the Chipmunk is in the picture from the beginning?

        I used to call skydiving safe until I took up flying!
        de Havilland forever!

        Comment

        • Moggy C
          Moderator
          • Jan 2000
          • 20534

          #5
          Yup, that's the one.

          Moggy
          "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

          Comment

          • SimonH
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Mar 2005
            • 85

            #6
            Thats quite a well known incident and the CAA show it at their Safety Meetings. Happened at Sibson near Peterborough. I'm not sure if the pilot was ever caught but he should have been shot for that. As an ex skydiver myself and now a pilot, I can see things from both sides. Parachute centres are marked clearly on aviation maps. There is simply NO excuse for what that idiot did, blundering through a drop zone putting lives at risk. Sibson has the A1 running next to it which is a pretty good Nav feature and its located just to the NW of Peterborough...again, pretty hard to miss!! If all that isn't enough, Sibson is covered by Waddington LARS who will even tell you when the jumpship is running in and at what height!!!

            I have whistled past planes in freefall, admittedly not so close, and believe me, it aint funny. If the pilot is lost and knows there is a parachute centre in the area he should call 121.5 and get a fix if he can't get a radar service elsewhere.

            Its very easy to become 'unsure of position' when flying, but all the help needed is just a radio call away. That help should be used sooner rather than later if you're anywhere near a drop zone.

            Comment

            • Moggy C
              Moderator
              • Jan 2000
              • 20534

              #7
              As I'm lazy, and anyway couldn't put it better myself, I'll quote from Mike Cross's posting elsewhere.

              1. Neither the jumpers nor the Chippy driver had any rights over the airspace in which the incident took place.
              2. It was incumbent on the Jumpmaster to ensure that the drop could safely be made. (As you say there is a LARS available)
              3. The Chippy did not suddenly materialise out of thin air.
              4. It would have been sensible for the Chippy pilot to have routed round the DZ, however it is not a legal requirement.
              5. The AIP asks pilots to check activity with the a/g operator. However this request appears to refer to contact when wishing to enter the ATZ. From what (another poster) says the radio is not always manned.
              Now about the 'idiot' flying the Chippy?

              Moggy
              Last edited by Moggy C; 7th December 2005, 14:06.
              "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

              Comment

              • SimonH
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Mar 2005
                • 85

                #8
                Well with that attitude we might as well all fly through marked gliding sites at 1000ft where they are winch launching, after all, we have as much right to be there as the gliders. Lets just overlook the fact that its extremely DANGEROUS.

                Moggy, supporting that attitude is pathetic. I was at the CAA Safety Meeting at Sibson on Monday night where they showed that clip and the CAA made it quite clear that the pilot was at fault. I have jumpmastered loads myself and I'm sure you can imagine how difficult it is to see a plane thats 12,000ft below you. Its a tiny spec!! Besides, at the point of exit, assuming the Chippy is travelling at about 100kts, the plane would have been about 1.5 to 2 miles away from the DZ.

                The jumpmaster does not have any contact with LARS. The jumpship pilot is in contact with the drop zone on their frequency and despite what Mr Cross says, the radio is always manned. Sibson is a licenced airfield, it has an ATZ, A/G radio, flying schools....the lot!! It is crass incompetence on the pilots behalf to assume that he can just wonder through an ATZ or DZ even if he fails to raise them on his radio. Unless he has spoken to the operation in question and been CLEARED to fly through the zone, he should assume it is active and give it a very wide birth.

                If a plane and skydiver collide, they will both die. If that is not good reason enough to avoid drop zones altogether then I dont know what is. Personally, I would rather promote the safe side of flying and will encourage anything to make it safer rather than bleat about 'no actual rules being broken' like its some sort of excuse.

                Comment

                • Moggy C
                  Moderator
                  • Jan 2000
                  • 20534

                  #9
                  Sorry Simon.

                  That's not an attitude, it is a plain statement of the facts.

                  My attitude is that there were faults on both sides, nevertheless it is the duty of the Jumpmaster to ensure the drop can be made safely.

                  Moggy
                  Last edited by Moggy C; 7th December 2005, 23:33.
                  "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

                  Comment

                  • SimonH
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Mar 2005
                    • 85

                    #10
                    Moggy, as I said, I am a pilot and I have also jumpmastered jump planes. I have personal experience of both. Basically what you are saying is its ok for planes to fly through DZ's and its down to the jumpmaster to spot any planes below him and if there is an airprox between the two, its the jumpmasters fault?? Do you seriously expect a jumpmaster to be able to easily spot a tiny plane 3.5 miles below him which is 2 miles away from the drop zone, which is blending in with all the other features on the ground below it??

                    If you are a pilot, you will know how difficult it can be to spot a plane in the air when it is below the horizon. A jumpmaster has the same problem and the only protection he has if he cannot see any planes in that little maroon parachute printed on the maps.

                    I dont wish to get into a heated debate but I am simply echoing what the CAA safety inspector said at Sibson on Monday night. His advice was to stay away from drop zones at all times.....PERIOD. I will gladly pass on his name and phone number if you would like to discuss it with him.

                    You may understand my attitude to planes flying in drop zones if I tell you I was jumping at Knettishall a number of years ago when a glider pilot insisted on flying around in the drop zone while parachuting was in progress. In trying to prove a point that he was entitled to be in that airspace by disrupting the jumping, he ended up killing both himself and his passenger. I never want to witness something like that again which is why I support the CAA inspectors view that planes should keep well clear of drop zones.

                    Comment

                    • Moggy C
                      Moderator
                      • Jan 2000
                      • 20534

                      #11
                      Originally posted by SimonH
                      Basically what you are saying is its ok for planes to fly through DZ's
                      Where in "My attitude is that there were faults on both sides" does it imply that I think it OK for planes to fly through drop zones?

                      Moggy
                      "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

                      Comment

                      • AFH10
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jan 2005
                        • 186

                        #12
                        Sorry SimonH but I have to take Moggy's viewpoint on this one. AFAIK drop zones are basically the same diameter as ATZ's. Can you honestly say that everyone will be in that airspace when they jump from 10,000 feet?
                        I've also first hand experience of skydivers not exactly sticking to the rules. On a training cross country for an IMC was approaching an airfield with a drop zone to transit overhead at 3,500 feet, four miles to run, cloudbase broken at 2,500 feet tops 6000 feet (Cumulus). Gave them a courtesy call fully expecting to be told no traffic. Instead was told that the dropship was 2 minutes to drop from 10,000 feet and to route around. I thought that paradropping had to be in VMC? A friend who flies a dropship has confirmed that at times they have dropped on a GPS position.
                        As Moggy said, things aren't always black and white and there is fault on both sides.

                        Comment

                        • SimonH
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Mar 2005
                          • 85

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Moggy C
                          ....Originally Posted by SimonH
                          Basically what you are saying is its ok for planes to fly through DZ's


                          Where in "My attitude is that there were faults on both sides" does it imply that I think it OK for planes to fly through drop zones?

                          Moggy
                          Moggy, if you're going to quote me mate at least quote the full sentence. The sentence you quoted ended with 2 question marks...I was seeking confirmation of your stance on the issue, thats all. I was looking for confirmation because from reading post No7 where you quote Mr Cross and state "As I'm lazy, and anyway couldn't put it better myself, I'll quote from Mike Cross's posting elsewhere." I was led to believe that you were trying to make the Jumpmaster on that particular load to be at fault for this incident. I assumed that was the reason for highlighting the word Jumpmaster?

                          Look guys, we can split hairs over this all day but the points I am trying to make are these.

                          1. Flying through airspace where there is a higher than average chance of being struck by a falling object is at best poor airmanship and at worst willfull endangerment.

                          2. You cannot expect the Jumpmaster to easily spot a small aircraft which blends in with the landscape when its 3 miles below him. I know, I have tried it.

                          3. Lets forget about whether an aircraft can legally be in a DZ or not. It is extremely DANGEROUS. Is that on its own not good enough reason to keep clear?? You can legally enter a MATZ without permission too, but if you thought it was active it would be a pretty stupid thing to do. Same with Danger Area's. You can legally enter them too, but according to the CAA, if you get shot down by a prototype missile or whatever in a Danger Area, they would prosecute for "willfull endangerment of an aircraft", assuming you survive of course.

                          4. If all planes stay clear of DZ's, there is no chance of anyone getting killed. If planes fly through DZ's the chances of a death are a lot higher. That is pure simple logic, common sense...call it what you will, but most of all, its a FACT.

                          AFH10, I know skydivers are no angels. I have seen GPS/radio spotting and I know it goes on. However, if the Jumpmaster can see the DZ and make a visual spot, that makes it legal. That could be through a small gap in otherwise solid overcast.

                          When you ask "Can you honestly say that everyone will be in that airspace when they jump from 10,000 feet?"...well, generally yes. Parachutes dont generally travel great distances but usually land on the drop zone. If they kept going outside the 2 mile zone it would mean lots of long walks back to the DZ. I'm not trying to be cocky AFH, i'm just trying to honestly answer your question based on my experience's. After all, I am sure after your own experience you wouldn't now fly near a DZ without talking to them first would you??

                          If it simplifies things for pilots, why not assume that all skydivers are dodgey rule breakers and that the jumpmaster is to busy looking at the GPS to spot any planes over the DZ. That way at least the pilot KNOWS what course of action to take....simply avoid the place!
                          Last edited by SimonH; 8th December 2005, 01:59.

                          Comment

                          • galdri
                            Half Wit
                            • Jan 2000
                            • 1360

                            #14
                            Christ guys

                            It is the same all over the world, I guess. This is developing into the us versus them debate. I've been flying as a jumpship pilot (or what ever you call it in the UK) on a C206. So in a way SimonH, I see it both ways, just as you do (though I'm a pilot in principle while you are a 'diver in principle). In general, they skydivers look upon pilots as idiots willing to kill them, and pilots look upon skydivers as cowboys that have a deathwish, jumping out of perfectly good aeroplanes.

                            This has nothing to do with dangerzones (active para jumping), or jumpmasters not knowing what is happening below them. It is just pure ignorance (or stupidity, what ever you want to call it), and both parties have very bad apples in their ranks.

                            Here in Iceland we have a unicom frequency (118.1) that covers the whole country while outside controlled airspace. Everybody (with radio) must monitor that freq. when outside controlled airspace. Here calls are made, on that freq. 5 min to jump, 2 min to jump, 1 min. to jump and when the jump is made. Still I've had to make an aborted jumprun more than once, and more than twice because some prick was seen flying through our jumpzone. Also, I've been flying, with jumpers, on top at at 12.000 feet, when they all went out on a GPS fix! The lowes bottoms I remember were 3000 feet. There must be something wrong when jumpers are complaning about ICING in clouds!

                            So, please guys! This is a futile discussion. Let's drop it before someone gets hurt (or banned!).
                            Those who can.....do,
                            Those who can not.....teach (that's me!)

                            Comment

                            • SimonH
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Mar 2005
                              • 85

                              #15
                              Originally posted by galdri
                              ....Still I've had to make an aborted jumprun more than once, and more than twice because some prick was seen flying through our jumpzone.
                              Lol Galdri!! Well I actually called the guy an idiot in my first post but your version is probably more acurate!!

                              From reading the last line in post No7, I naturally assumed it meant that Moggy did not agree the pilot was an idiot. That is what prompted me to go to great lengths to reinforce my point.

                              I am not trying to rock the boat or anything like that. I am just trying to raise a safety issue. Planes and parachutes dont mix...people die. It would be a pretty shallow person who banned me for reinforcing a safety issue dont ya think?

                              Comment

                              • galdri
                                Half Wit
                                • Jan 2000
                                • 1360

                                #16
                                Originally posted by SimonH
                                Planes and parachutes dont mix...people die.
                                Exactly my point. But the sad part of it all is that we have people on both sides that don't think that applies
                                Those who can.....do,
                                Those who can not.....teach (that's me!)

                                Comment

                                • Moggy C
                                  Moderator
                                  • Jan 2000
                                  • 20534

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by galdri
                                  Here in Iceland we have a unicom frequency (118.1) that covers the whole country while outside controlled airspace. Everybody (with radio) must monitor that freq. when outside controlled airspace. Here calls are made, on that freq. 5 min to jump, 2 min to jump, 1 min. to jump and when the jump is made.
                                  It's a bit more problematical here.

                                  There's meat bombers operating out of Old Buckenham, my local refuelling field.

                                  A passing aircraft, a couple of miles to the West of the field might be using Lakenheath for a radar assisted FIS, he might be using Old Buck itself, he might be using London Info (though heaven knows why), he might have switched to SafetyCom for a let down to Knettishall or one of the private strips, or he might be non-radio.

                                  In truth we don't find it a great issue, Generally we monitor Lakenheath on which the activities of the jump aircraft is quite well broadcast. But it certainy isn't as simple as the 'controlled airspace or Unicom' arrangement you have.

                                  Moggy
                                  "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

                                  Comment

                                  • Chipmunk Carol
                                    Surly bond slipper
                                    • Aug 2003
                                    • 2689

                                    #18
                                    I've had many happy hours, nay years, at Sibson. It is the only place where I have boarded an a/c, jumped out of it, then boarded another a/c and landed it myself, on the same day.

                                    I can tell you, from a pilot's point of view, having a parachute centre messing up my route is a real nuisance and it is a real nuisance that I will very happily take a broad birth around. Forget rights of way, just avoid them like the plague.
                                    de Havilland forever!

                                    Comment

                                    • mike currill
                                      Big pistons rule
                                      • Jul 2003
                                      • 8791

                                      #19
                                      Well said Janie. The way I'd look at it is "it may be legal to fly through an active DZ but is it 1) sensible 2) safe?" If there is any doubt as to what the answer to these questions will be then save everyone a lot of grief and go around it.
                                      The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its original size.

                                      Comment

                                      • wessex boy
                                        Talking Baggage
                                        • Aug 2005
                                        • 1086

                                        #20
                                        Years ago I flew from the old Doncaster Airfield (I was stationed at Finningley) where they did meat-bombing at weekends. Us locals knew that we had to shut down during bomb-runs ('divers legs & propellers do mix, it is just a bit messy!). There had been an incident recently where an 'diver had landed on a prop down south.

                                        A visiting Seneca driver was in a hurry to depart, started up and called for taxi clearance. ATC advised him a drop was about to happen and he was to shut down....he refused (I was listening from the Club ops room). There followed a heated debate for about 5 mins, it was only when the CFI called him and stated that he would be reported to the CAA for breach of the ANO that he shut down, the CFI then marched purposefully out the a/c.........
                                        J Atkins - A PPL once More!



                                        Are you an Aero-ist? Then fly with style at www.aero-ist.co.uk

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