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  • Hugh Jarse
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2005
    • 193

    #21
    I didn't think they had cross crew qualification. I understood the CAA stopped it as the aircraft were too different in handling and size.

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    • chornedsnorkack
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Jul 2005
      • 1108

      #22
      Originally posted by adamdowley
      i know that the two types require (and have) ETOPS-180 certification to allow them to do transatlantic flights (and that a specific operator needs to gain ETOPS certification), but what other certification would be required by an airline to operate long range flights from Europe to the US for example?


      thanks
      Do they really need that on Atlantic?

      There is a rather small ETOPS 120 blind spot in the middle of Atlantic. Do charters bother with ETOPS 180, or just use ETOPS 120 and fly round (not a big detour)?

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      • Hugh Jarse
        Senior Member
        • Feb 2005
        • 193

        #23
        We do use 180mins on the Caribbean flights in particular. While you may see the "detour" being only small, this is a big difference to an operator that may see that happening daily, in both directions. The costs add up very quickly. There is no difference in costs involved in keeping 180mins and 120 mins so why not keep it going?

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        • adamdowley
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jul 2003
          • 1399

          #24
          Originally posted by chornedsnorkack
          Do they really need that on Atlantic?

          There is a rather small ETOPS 120 blind spot in the middle of Atlantic. Do charters bother with ETOPS 180, or just use ETOPS 120 and fly round (not a big detour)?

          I would think that if there is any blind spot on the route that requires ETOPS-180, then surely yes, they would require it (at every point along the flight plan, the aircraft must be within the ETOPS (so at the ETOPS-180 point, they must have ETOPS-180) certification for diversion to an airport) - why take any detour when they could just get certified for ETOPS-180 - and then reduce costs, and be seen to be a 'safety conscious' airline when they do get ETOPS-180. the two types have ETOPS-180 certification anyway, so why not get certification for Operational approval?

          the coursework actually specifies flights from the UK to the Carribean, so in this case, ETOPS-180 would be needed.


          thanks for your help guys
          Last edited by adamdowley; 6th March 2006, 10:43.

          Comment

          • wysiwyg
            Retard :)
            • Jan 2000
            • 3749

            #25
            Originally posted by Hugh Jarse
            I didn't think they had cross crew qualification. I understood the CAA stopped it as the aircraft were too different in handling and size.
            AFAIK it is still possible to do MFF (mixed fleet flying) between all modern Airbus products. In fact the CAA consider us to be doing it with the A343 and the A346 because of the large difference in performance. I know one guy who at the moment flies British reg A346, A343 and Bulgarian registered A320.

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            • chornedsnorkack
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jul 2005
              • 1108

              #26
              Originally posted by Hugh Jarse
              There is no difference in costs involved in keeping 180mins and 120 mins so why not keep it going?
              Really?

              Wasnt there a story about Thai giving up their ETOPS 180 because they could not afford to keep it, but retaining ETOPS 120?

              Comment

              • Hugh Jarse
                Senior Member
                • Feb 2005
                • 193

                #27
                The only costs involved are in ensuring everything is working. Some things not working will reduce the ETOPs rule time from 180mins to 120mins. I didn't know Thai had stated that as a problem. ETOPs 180 is awarded as an upgrade to 120 once sufficient engineering coverage has been demonstrated, engine condition monitoring, crew training and that the company is demonstrating the aircraft is remaining within the in flight shut down (IFSD) criteria. As you can see this is the reason ETOPs approval isn't given straight away.

                Comment

                • Hugh Jarse
                  Senior Member
                  • Feb 2005
                  • 193

                  #28
                  Originally posted by wysiwyg
                  I know one guy who at the moment flies British reg A346, A343 and Bulgarian registered A320.
                  I think the key here is the difference in registrations. I would even put money on the fact that the CAA don't allow MFF in the same way as the 757/767.

                  Comment

                  • im going in
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • May 2003
                    • 155

                    #29
                    Monarch FBW pilots can operate 320/321 and 332.

                    Comment

                    • Flying-forever
                      At Southampton Airport..
                      • Dec 2005
                      • 160

                      #30
                      I think they use them becasue it fits the tourist companies needs (e.g Thomsons) in the range and comfort also don't need massive airports to fly from. Like Monarch
                      Daniel

                      Flights to come:
                      9th March 2009
                      London Gatwick - Orlando
                      Virgin Atlantic

                      31st March 2009
                      Orlando - London Gatwick
                      Virgin Atlantic

                      Comment

                      • Hugh Jarse
                        Senior Member
                        • Feb 2005
                        • 193

                        #31
                        I have been doing a bit of digging around on the CCQ question and have only been able to confirm that the A318, A319, A320 and A321 come under the type heading of A320 and the A330 family comes under a seperate heading of A330. The CAA have been allowing crews to fly them concurrently but not to the extent that the 757/767 crews are. The 757/767 is a common type rating (source, LASORS, www.caa.co.uk). On the 75/76 we can fly the 2 back to back on the same day. AFAIK this is not permitted on the A320/A330. My search continues. I will let you know when I find out definitively.

                        Comment

                        • wysiwyg
                          Retard :)
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 3749

                          #32
                          bmi are also doing MFF with the 319/320/321 and 330.

                          Swings and roundabouts really, one manufacturer lets you fly 2 nearly the same size types on the same day while the other allows you to fly a regional jet size aircraft and a superjumbo on consecutive days. Each have their merits.

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