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  • cloud_9
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Sep 2005
    • 2418

    #21
    747 all the way!

    I recently flew to MCO on a BA 777, and although the cattle class 'economy' seat stated 32" seat pitch, it felt like 29".

    Compared to flying with Virgin on a 747 to SFO about two years ago, their lowest economy seat was awesome, lots of room!

    Comment

    • Deano
      Moderator
      • Aug 2003
      • 3098

      #22
      But if you are going on a long haul trip the sensible thing to do is to keep checking your flight details incase any change especially if you have booked a few months in advance, as happened to me once going to Australia, I had booked 10 months in advance, one of my flights totally vanished off the airline's schedule 2 weeks before departure, I noticed it on the web and then phoned & rebooked my seat, if you are that worried about obtaining the right seat etc then keeping up to speed is a small & fun price to pay
      http://www.findmadeleine.com

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      • chornedsnorkack
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jul 2005
        • 1108

        #23
        Originally posted by The Old Man
        But it's still not guaranteed. Twice in 2005, Continental changed the equipment, once from a 767 to a 757, the other time from a 757 to a 767 and
        caused confusion and complaints all round as familied found themselves separated. As we always check in early, we managed to get our choice of rearranged seats.
        As to the original thread, I am a 767 fan but, in the end, it's all about convenience, price and service.
        If the price and service are assumed equal, then that leaves concenience - which depends on the airframe.

        Seat rearrangement indeed tends to separate groups. But travelling alone - do you think you are lucky when 767 is changed to 757, or do you feel lucky when 757 is changed to 767?

        757 has 6 abreast, 767 has 7 abreast. Obviously, to have an equal seat count, a 757 must have more rows, and more window seats, than 767.

        But a 767 has two aisles. Much better aisle access.

        Comment

        • Skymonster
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Jul 2004
          • 1986

          #24
          Originally posted by Bmused55
          I note a lot of people marking down a certain aircraft due to Crew or Seats. Surely you are all aware, that is not the fault of the airframe?
          Only partially true. Being a window fan myself, in economy 747s are ALWAYS configured 3+4+3 meaning two people to get over to get to the aisle. 757s are 3+3 - same problem as the 747. On the other hand, A330/A340/767 are almost invariably 2+4+2 in Y (or 2+3+2 for 767), meaning only one person to climb over. 777s are oddities in that they are sometimes 2+5+2 but I've also seen 3+3+3 (and EK are 3+4+3!), and there's some variation in MD11 configurations too. Bottom line for me anyway is that if its economy, I vastly prefer aircraft with only two seats between aisle and window. Of course, if its business class, then there's less of an issue, although 2+3+2 on some Boeings is a bit tedious if you get the very middle seat!

          Andy
          "Light travels faster than sound-that's why some people seem bright until they speak"
          AirTeamImages
          - the best aviation photography

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          • Bmused55
            Aaahh Emu!
            • Oct 2003
            • 11136

            #25
            Originally posted by The Old Man
            But it's still not guaranteed. Twice in 2005, Continental changed the equipment, once from a 767 to a 757, the other time from a 757 to a 767 and
            caused confusion and complaints all round as familied found themselves separated. As we always check in early, we managed to get our choice of rearranged seats.
            As to the original thread, I am a 767 fan but, in the end, it's all about convenience, price and service.
            Of course, there are exceptions and hic-cups. No one is saying that booking a seat is 100% gauranteed. I was just using on my own experience to support the view that Seat Booking and/or early check in and seat allocation can work to your advantage.
            Bmused55

            Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below and smite thee.

            My Blog
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            • Bmused55
              Aaahh Emu!
              • Oct 2003
              • 11136

              #26
              Originally posted by Skymonster
              Only partially true. Being a window fan myself, in economy 747s are ALWAYS configured 3+4+3 meaning two people to get over to get to the aisle. 757s are 3+3 - same problem as the 747. On the other hand, A330/A340/767 are almost invariably 2+4+2 in Y (or 2+3+2 for 767), meaning only one person to climb over. 777s are oddities in that they are sometimes 2+5+2 but I've also seen 3+3+3 (and EK are 3+4+3!), and there's some variation in MD11 configurations too. Bottom line for me anyway is that if its economy, I vastly prefer aircraft with only two seats between aisle and window. Of course, if its business class, then there's less of an issue, although 2+3+2 on some Boeings is a bit tedious if you get the very middle seat!

              Andy
              But again, the interior is completely up to the customer, IE the airline.
              Boeing or Airbus don't force seating arrangements on the airlines

              Saying that a manufacturer is to blame for seating arrangements on a plane is like blaming Volkswagen for the pink fluffy steering wheel cover someone fitted to their VW Beatle. Thats my view on it.
              Bmused55

              Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below and smite thee.

              My Blog
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              • chornedsnorkack
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jul 2005
                • 1108

                #27
                Originally posted by Bmused55
                But again, the interior is completely up to the customer, IE the airline.
                Boeing or Airbus don't force seating arrangements on the airlines
                No. The interior is only partly up to customers. Boeing and Airbus provide fuselages of a rather finite number of size and shape. Some arrangements are not allowed by manufacturer. And some are perfectly feasible, but the size and economy determines what the customer will sell it for.

                I kind of suspect that if an airline told Boeing they want 7 abreast with 1 aisle, 4 on one side 3 on the other side, Boeing would refuse. It can be done, though: Hawker-Siddeley obliged, and there are Tridents with 7 abreast.

                You can build an airliner which is almost twice the width of a 757, as Boeing did with 747. But obviously the manufacturer cannot build a plane with 4 sidewalls on the same deck.

                Boeing 767 does allow a few airlines to seat 8 abreast. Very few use that possibility. And 9 abreast is not possible at all. Given 7 abreast economy, it would be pointless to move the aisles closer in, for 3-1-3 seating, or further aside, for 1-5-1, or to one side, for, say, 3-2-2.

                Therefore, once an airline chooses Boeing 767, and gives up trying to pack in 2-4-2, you are assured of decent elbowroom and window seats being 1 away from aisle.

                Comment

                • symon
                  Planoholic
                  • Oct 2005
                  • 1011

                  #28
                  Originally posted by Bmused55
                  Infact, just about everything installed in the cabin is supplied by third parties
                  So how does Boeing's new "signature" interior work? Are they installing that themselves and by-passing the third party?

                  I've only ever flown Atlantic in a 777 and 744. Personally I prefer the 744 because when I get up to have a walk around it just feels more spacious. Im not claustrophobic, but it has a nice feeling of spaciousness. I've never flown in a tri-jet though, so would love to cross in a MD11.

                  As for pre-booking seats I've always managed to get the seat I want thankfully and it's never been changed. That may just be down to the service from the airlines I've flown though. I usually try and get an isle seat so I can have some extra legroom by using the isle to my advantage!
                  Sy

                  Everybody makes mistakes, that's why they put erasers on the ends of pencils.

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                  • Bmused55
                    Aaahh Emu!
                    • Oct 2003
                    • 11136

                    #29
                    Originally posted by chornedsnorkack
                    No. The interior is only partly up to customers. Boeing and Airbus provide fuselages of a rather finite number of size and shape. Some arrangements are not allowed by manufacturer. And some are perfectly feasible, but the size and economy determines what the customer will sell it for.

                    I kind of suspect that if an airline told Boeing they want 7 abreast with 1 aisle, 4 on one side 3 on the other side, Boeing would refuse. It can be done, though: Hawker-Siddeley obliged, and there are Tridents with 7 abreast.

                    You can build an airliner which is almost twice the width of a 757, as Boeing did with 747. But obviously the manufacturer cannot build a plane with 4 sidewalls on the same deck.

                    Boeing 767 does allow a few airlines to seat 8 abreast. Very few use that possibility. And 9 abreast is not possible at all. Given 7 abreast economy, it would be pointless to move the aisles closer in, for 3-1-3 seating, or further aside, for 1-5-1, or to one side, for, say, 3-2-2.

                    Therefore, once an airline chooses Boeing 767, and gives up trying to pack in 2-4-2, you are assured of decent elbowroom and window seats being 1 away from aisle.
                    And who is it that creates demand for planes of all sort of shapes an sizes? The customer.
                    If the airlines did not want a plane the width of an A340 or 777 (for example), they wouldn't have sold.

                    Here's an example:
                    Boeing is selling the 787 with an ideal 8 abreast economy in mind. Air India will fit 9 abreast. how can that be Boeing's fault?

                    Airbus build and sell the A330 with a 2-4-2 config noted as the ideal config for Economy, but several airlines fly 3-3-3. Airbus' fault? In my view, no.

                    And with all due respect, you do not know what boeing would say in the event of a customer asking for 7 abreast with one aisle. Personaly, I do not think that is even legal now.
                    Last edited by Bmused55; 6th January 2006, 15:15.
                    Bmused55

                    Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below and smite thee.

                    My Blog
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                    • Bmused55
                      Aaahh Emu!
                      • Oct 2003
                      • 11136

                      #30
                      Originally posted by judas
                      So how does Boeing's new "signature" interior work? Are they installing that themselves and by-passing the third party?

                      I've only ever flown Atlantic in a 777 and 744. Personally I prefer the 744 because when I get up to have a walk around it just feels more spacious. Im not claustrophobic, but it has a nice feeling of spaciousness. I've never flown in a tri-jet though, so would love to cross in a MD11.

                      As for pre-booking seats I've always managed to get the seat I want thankfully and it's never been changed. That may just be down to the service from the airlines I've flown though. I usually try and get an isle seat so I can have some extra legroom by using the isle to my advantage!
                      As far as I am aware wall and ceiling panelling is supplied as standard as are the bins to go with it. But, if an airline wanted to (and some have), Boeing would deliver an empty plane.

                      Everything is an option with Aircraft. Airlines pick and mix to their requirements.
                      Bmused55

                      Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below and smite thee.

                      My Blog
                      My Designs

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                      • The Old Man
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Apr 2004
                        • 65

                        #31
                        [QUOTE=chornedsnorkack]If the price and service are assumed equal, then that leaves concenience - which depends on the airframe.

                        Well, no! Convenience, in my book, means being able to fly from my local airport (GLA) without having to transfer through a hub.

                        p.s. Going off thread, how do I eliminate the "edit" from my posts. Any pm would be appreciated

                        Comment

                        • Skymonster
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jul 2004
                          • 1986

                          #32
                          Originally posted by Bmused55
                          But again, the interior is completely up to the customer, IE the airline. Boeing or Airbus don't force seating arrangements on the airlines
                          OK, well all aeroplanes are just metal tubes with doors and windows and they all move at roughly the same speed, so on that basis alone I couldn't care less whether I travelled on a 747, 767, 777, A330, A340, MD11 or whatever - I would have no preference.

                          I actually prefer aircraft with blowers in the overhead panels rather than the general aircon now popular in Airbus a/c in particular, but also becoming more popular in Boeings too. But as this is an airline choice too, I guess this doesn't count either?

                          The original question was that if fares, etc were equal, which type would we chose and why? Given that all aeroplanes are metal tubes and I could not care less whether its Boeing aluminium or Airbus aluminium that the thing is made of, for me issues such as seating are the ONLY criteria on which I would base a preference - all other things (like airline-specific service) being equal too, but of course we weren't asked about service preferences! This is especially true as I've flown on all the types concerned - had there been a type I hadn't flown on, I might select that for one flight and one flight only simply to add it to my list.

                          However, if I was asked to nominate another criteria by which I might chose between types, I'd say that I generally don't like 747s, simply because they typically carry too many passengers and I don't like the scrummage and delays/queues that are often involved with checking in, boarding, deplaning etc of higher capacity aircraft. On this basis alone, I have NO desire whatsoever to travel on the forthcoming A380.

                          Andy
                          Last edited by Skymonster; 6th January 2006, 16:06.
                          "Light travels faster than sound-that's why some people seem bright until they speak"
                          AirTeamImages
                          - the best aviation photography

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                          • chornedsnorkack
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jul 2005
                            • 1108

                            #33
                            Originally posted by Skymonster

                            However, if I was asked to nominate another criteria by which I might chose between types, I'd say that I generally don't like 747s, simply because they typically carry too many passengers and I don't like the scrummage and delays/queues that are often involved with checking in, boarding, deplaning etc of higher capacity aircraft. On this basis alone, I have NO desire whatsoever to travel on the forthcoming A380.

                            Andy
                            Indeed. And generally the airport check-ins et cetera are built around handling a certain number of passengers coming from a single plane. So, if the airport has so and so many check in decks enough for a 747, then usually when a 767 is leaving, the same number of desks are in use, and fewer passengers use each, so the delays generally are worse with 747.

                            Of course, airports are also in trouble when several smaller planes use them simultaneously. But if you fly a 767, the passengers there may have the airport to themselves or share it with the passengers of other planes - with a big plane, it is certain that there are many passengers around at the time.

                            And naturally, an exception with the 747 is the 747SP. Do you prefer to fly a 747SP or a 777-300?

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                            • Shadow1
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Sep 2004
                              • 1760

                              #34
                              I've flown across the Atlantic countless times with various airlines including Air France, Air Canada, British Airways and KLM. Types have ranged from the 742 in the older days for both AC and BA to the newest A332 for AF with the 744, A343 and 772. Each airline provided incredible service, relative comfort in economy and decent value for the amount paid for the fare.
                              However, although the flight aboard the T7 withj BA was enjoyable, I preferred the flight I had taken a month before, again with BA, but this time with a 744. I guess you could say I am a sucker for the Queen of the Skies, no matter the destination or the airline flying the aircraft.
                              But I have to say that my favorite aircraft has to be the A332 which I have flown with AF from CDG to YYZ. Incredible seats, even in economy, the entertainment system was second to none and the service was top notch, in my opinion.
                              In the end, it really doesn't matter what type of aircraft I am flying on as for me, the sheer pleasure of flying and listening to the most intricate sounds made by the aircraft puts a smile on my face from the moment we take off until the moment we land!

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