Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What is 6th Freedom?

Collapse
X
Collapse
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • chornedsnorkack
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jul 2005
    • 1108

    What is 6th Freedom?

    What precisely is the 6th freedom?

    If one flies an airline to an airport in the home country of the airline and then the same airline to a third country, when is such a trip legal use of 3rd and 4th freedom, and when is a violation of the lack of 6th freedom committed?
  • SOFTLAD
    Registered User
    • Jan 2000
    • 1160

    #2
    Sorry don't konw what you mean ?

    Comment

    • Airline owner
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Oct 2003
      • 5327

      #3
      Sixth Freedom:

      The right of an airline from one country to carry traffic from a point of origin in one foreign country to a destination in another foreign country via the ome country of the airline

      e.g. Lufthansa carries 6th freedm traffic between Detroit and Tel Aviv, as it transports passengers travelling from Detroit to Frankfurt and then on to Tel Aviv


      hope that helps

      Comment

      • T5
        T5
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Jan 2000
        • 6822

        #4
        We talked about this not so long ago and someone mentioned that CSA also operated 6th Freedom flights.
        Michael

        Comment

        • Airline owner
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Oct 2003
          • 5327

          #5
          so basically its connections?? so wouldnt JFK-LHR-CDG be 6th freedom?

          Comment

          • zoot horn rollo
            Lady Gaga is my queen
            • Sep 2005
            • 1504

            #6
            FREEDOMS OF THE AIR

            First Freedom of the Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State or States to fly across its territory without landing (also known as a First Freedom Right).

            Second Freedom of the Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State or States to land in its territory for non-traffic purposes (also known as a Second Freedom Right).

            Third Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State to put down, in the territory of the first State, traffic coming from the home State of the carrier (also known as a Third Freedom Right).

            Fourth Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State to take on, in the territory of the first State, traffic destined for the home State of the carrier (also known as a Fourth Freedom Right).

            Fifth Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State to put down and to take on, in the territory of the first State, traffic coming from or destined to a third State (also known as a Fifth Freedom Right).

            ICAO characterizes all "freedoms" beyond the Fifth as "so-called" because only the first five "freedoms" have been officially recognized as such by international treaty.

            Sixth Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, of transporting, via the home State of the carrier, traffic moving between two other States (also known as a Sixth Freedom Right). The so-called Sixth Freedom of the Air, unlike the first five freedoms, is not incorporated as such into any widely recognized air service agreements such as the "Five Freedoms Agreement".

            Seventh Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State, of transporting traffic between the territory of the granting State and any third State with no requirement to include on such operation any point in the territory of the recipient State, i.e the service need not connect to or be an extension of any service to/from the home State of the carrier.

            Eighth Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, of transporting cabotage traffic between two points in the territory of the granting State on a service which originates or terminates in the home country of the foreign carrier or (in connection with the so-called Seventh Freedom of the Air) outside the territory of the granting State (also known as a Eighth Freedom Right or "consecutive cabotage").

            Ninth Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege of transporting cabotage traffic of the granting State on a service performed entirely within the territory of the granting State (also known as a Ninth Freedom Right or "stand alone" cabotage).

            Source: ICAO Manual on the Regulation of International Air Transport (Doc 9626, Part 4)
            I don't want to die, because I don't want to end up like Anita Dobson - Frank Sidebottom, actually.
            Thank you

            Comment

            • Airline owner
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Oct 2003
              • 5327

              #7
              oh so you didnt do that off the top of your head then?!

              Comment

              • zoot horn rollo
                Lady Gaga is my queen
                • Sep 2005
                • 1504

                #8
                Nah, I always found that you didn't need to know it all (because invariably you got it wrong anyway) because knowing where to look was the key!
                I don't want to die, because I don't want to end up like Anita Dobson - Frank Sidebottom, actually.
                Thank you

                Comment

                • Airline owner
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Oct 2003
                  • 5327

                  #9
                  lol, indeed

                  Comment

                  • chornedsnorkack
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jul 2005
                    • 1108

                    #10
                    Defining 6th freedom

                    Surely the 6th freedom must be particularly precisely defined when it is NOT granted (though 3rd and 4th are)?

                    Comment

                    • zoot horn rollo
                      Lady Gaga is my queen
                      • Sep 2005
                      • 1504

                      #11
                      No. it doesn't need to be defined because it is not a Freedom recognised or mentioned in Air Service Agreements, which are held centrally by ICAO.
                      I don't want to die, because I don't want to end up like Anita Dobson - Frank Sidebottom, actually.
                      Thank you

                      Comment

                      • chornedsnorkack
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Jul 2005
                        • 1108

                        #12
                        Originally posted by zoot horn rollo
                        No. it doesn't need to be defined because it is not a Freedom recognised or mentioned in Air Service Agreements, which are held centrally by ICAO.
                        But then does not any airline having any 3rd and 4th freedom rights to more than one country also automatically hold all the 6th freedom rights between those countries through the home country?

                        Comment

                        • hiddeneurope
                          Junior Member
                          • Nov 2005
                          • 22

                          #13
                          Freedoms of the Air

                          This is a very interesting query, and #6 gives the regulatory position absolutely spot-on. But I wonder whether some of the other comments are actually correct. In the days before electronic ticketing and we all used airline coupons, the classic sixth freedom flights were those that took the passenger on a single coupon (and usually without change of plane) from Country A to Country C via the registered home State of the airline (Country B). There have been some celebrated examples: with Aer Lingus in the mid nineties from New York to Belfast (touching down in Shannon en route), with Aeroflot from London to Tokyo with a Moscow stop en route (which still exists today as the twice weekly SU581 LHR-SVO-NRT, which can still be ticketed on a single coupon though nowadays passengers do need to change planes in Moscow). Duos announcement, just before their eventual demise on 1 May 2004, of a proposed Berlin Tegel Birmingham Shannon routing would have been, if the carrier has not gone bankrupt, a good example of a sixth freedom flight.

                          The timetables abound with some splendid modern examples. My favourite in the current winter schedules is TAROM Flight RO303 from Vienna to Munich every morning (Mon-Fri) at 11.10 am. This journey is a through flight (no need to deplane en route) with the routing: Vienna-Cluj-Sibiu-Munich. Just under seven hours on a ATR-42, and actually, for a Y-Class single, a few euros cheaper than the direct LH or OS flights.

                          This TAROM example features in the January issue of hidden europe magazine which is, as it happens, published today. To access the full article in pdf format click here or go to the hidden europe website (www.hiddeneurope.co.uk) and follow the link to the table of contents of the current issue. The article is entitled "flights of fancy".

                          #4 suggests that CSA might have some sixth freedom flights. Not in the current timetables, as it happens, nor I am aware of any recent examples (assuming we are talking Czech Airlines here, and not China Southern Airlines!). But CSA (OK) do have some really interesting fifth freedom flights. They have a twice weekly flight from Dubai to Colombo (OK188) and a daily evening flight (except Sats) from Marseilles to Barcelona (OK696). Both originate in Prague.

                          That same article in hiddeneurope referred to above discusses and has a listing of interesting European fifth and sixth freedom flights in the present winter schedules. Some of my favourite fifth freedom flights nowadays are Berlin to Moscow with MIAT Mongolian, Oslo to Copenhagen with Pakistan International (on a 747), Zrich to Manchester with Singapore Airlines (also a 747, but really pricey), Frankfurt to Geneva with Saudi Arabian Airlines (75 mins and 300 miles on a 777!). When the Faroese carrier Atlantic Airways (RC) starts Shetland to London Stansted later this year that will be an example of an eighth freedom flight. But thats another story!

                          The right of a carrier to operate connecting flights (ie. Lufthansa flying a passenger from Detroit to Frankfurt and then onward with a connecting flight to Tel Aviv) has been relatively unfettered, and has, I believe, not generally been seen as an expression of sixth freedom rights. That Lufthansa example (cited by #3 above) is replicated across the world: anyone flying from a UK airport with KLM to Amsterdam and then on with KLM to a third country for example. In the days before electronic ticketing and we all used airline coupons these were flights that required two coupons, so less truly an expression of sixth freedom rights that my Aer Lingus, Aeroflot, Duo and TAROM examples above.

                          Hope these few thoughts help. What a complex subject! Im sure folk will leap in and correct if Ive not got details absolutely right.

                          Comment

                          • chornedsnorkack
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jul 2005
                            • 1108

                            #14
                            Originally posted by hiddeneurope
                            This is a very interesting query, and #6 gives the regulatory position absolutely spot-on. But I wonder whether some of the other comments are actually correct. In the days before electronic ticketing and we all used airline coupons, the classic sixth freedom flights were those that took the passenger on a single coupon (and usually without change of plane) from Country A to Country C via the registered home State of the airline (Country B). There have been some celebrated examples: with Aer Lingus in the mid nineties from New York to Belfast (touching down in Shannon en route), with Aeroflot from London to Tokyo with a Moscow stop en route (which still exists today as the twice weekly SU581 LHR-SVO-NRT, which can still be ticketed on a single coupon though nowadays passengers do need to change planes in Moscow). Duos announcement, just before their eventual demise on 1 May 2004, of a proposed Berlin Tegel Birmingham Shannon routing would have been, if the carrier has not gone bankrupt, a good example of a sixth freedom flight.

                            The timetables abound with some splendid modern examples. My favourite in the current winter schedules is TAROM Flight RO303 from Vienna to Munich every morning (Mon-Fri) at 11.10 am. This journey is a through flight (no need to deplane en route) with the routing: Vienna-Cluj-Sibiu-Munich. Just under seven hours on a ATR-42, and actually, for a Y-Class single, a few euros cheaper than the direct LH or OS flights.

                            This TAROM example features in the January issue of hidden europe magazine which is, as it happens, published today. To access the full article in pdf format click here or go to the hidden europe website (www.hiddeneurope.co.uk) and follow the link to the table of contents of the current issue. The article is entitled "flights of fancy".

                            #4 suggests that CSA might have some sixth freedom flights. Not in the current timetables, as it happens, nor I am aware of any recent examples (assuming we are talking Czech Airlines here, and not China Southern Airlines!). But CSA (OK) do have some really interesting fifth freedom flights. They have a twice weekly flight from Dubai to Colombo (OK188) and a daily evening flight (except Sats) from Marseilles to Barcelona (OK696). Both originate in Prague.

                            That same article in hiddeneurope referred to above discusses and has a listing of interesting European fifth and sixth freedom flights in the present winter schedules. Some of my favourite fifth freedom flights nowadays are Berlin to Moscow with MIAT Mongolian, Oslo to Copenhagen with Pakistan International (on a 747), Zrich to Manchester with Singapore Airlines (also a 747, but really pricey), Frankfurt to Geneva with Saudi Arabian Airlines (75 mins and 300 miles on a 777!). When the Faroese carrier Atlantic Airways (RC) starts Shetland to London Stansted later this year that will be an example of an eighth freedom flight. But thats another story!

                            The right of a carrier to operate connecting flights (ie. Lufthansa flying a passenger from Detroit to Frankfurt and then onward with a connecting flight to Tel Aviv) has been relatively unfettered, and has, I believe, not generally been seen as an expression of sixth freedom rights. That Lufthansa example (cited by #3 above) is replicated across the world: anyone flying from a UK airport with KLM to Amsterdam and then on with KLM to a third country for example. In the days before electronic ticketing and we all used airline coupons these were flights that required two coupons, so less truly an expression of sixth freedom rights that my Aer Lingus, Aeroflot, Duo and TAROM examples above.

                            Hope these few thoughts help. What a complex subject! Im sure folk will leap in and correct if Ive not got details absolutely right.
                            Ah, thats interesting! But the official regulations stated in #6 are hard to understand when considered closer.

                            What precisely is the definition of 6th freedom?

                            Is it the existence of a single flight coupon that completes violation of the lack of the 6th Freedom? If yes, what constitutes an e-ticket that would violate the lack of 6th Freedom?

                            Or is it absence of deplaning? How does it compare with 2nd freedom? That is, is an aircraft making a 2nd freedom technical stop required to keep all passengers indoors and not let any of them out, even to stay in the airport transit zone until reembarking?

                            Or is it the use of the same craft? If yes, does 3rd/4th Freedom and lack of 6th mean that any aircraft used for 3rd/4th Freedom service must then be grounded in its home state until the next flight, even in case of once weekly flights?

                            Also, how does 6th Freedom compare with 8th and 9th? What is the legal status of flight starting and ending in the same country, with a stop in a foreign country?

                            Comment

                            • hiddeneurope
                              Junior Member
                              • Nov 2005
                              • 22

                              #15
                              Sixth Freedom of the Air (and more!)

                              #14. Fascinating comments and queries.

                              Ah, thats interesting! But the official regulations stated in #6 are hard to understand when considered closer.
                              You are absolutely right in inferring that it is the sixth freedom that is most laced with ambiguity. I generally would tend towards the stricter definition, so operated by a single carrier, with a single flight number from A to C, with an intermediate stop en route at B (where B is in the registered home country of the carrier, and A and B are, respectively, in different foreign territories) and capable of being ticketed on a single through flight coupon. I would see the issue of deplaning en route as being secondary.

                              How does it compare with 2nd freedom? That is, is an aircraft making a 2nd freedom technical stop required to keep all passengers indoors and not let any of them out, even to stay in the airport transit zone until reembarking?
                              I think there is a big difference here. Oftentimes, less so nowadays that in the past, planes made technical stops in foreign countries en route. If they had traffic rights at the intermediate stop (as Aeroflot usually did on their Shannon stops), then that was a fifth freedom right. Where they had no rights to pick up or set down passengers at that intermediate foreign stop, then that was a second freedom right, even though passengers may deplane for a hour while stopping off (often for refuelling). Sixth freedom applies only where the stop off is not in a foreign country but in the registered home country of the carrier (so EI on BFS-SNN-JFK) or my modern TAROM example (in #13 above) with not just one but two sixth freedom stops en route in Romania while flying from Vienna to Munich. A quirky and a roundabout route, but a great example of 'sixth freedom'.

                              Does 3rd/4th Freedom and lack of 6th mean that any aircraft used for 3rd/4th Freedom service must then be grounded in its home state until the next flight, even in case of once weekly flights?
                              No, not at all. It merely means that the carrier cannot advertise through flights with a single flight number and single coupon from A to C via its home country B. A modern example is Icelandair (FI) with a rich range of connections from Europe to North America via Keflavik in Iceland. London to Boston and Copenhagen to New York are examples. But Icelandair (FI) has no sixth freedom rights for flying between any mainland European State and any North American destination (either nonstop or via its Keflavik hub), so if you fly LHR to BOS with Icelandair youll have two coupons, two flight numbers, even though the transit through the Keflavik hub is usually pretty painless. But the distinction is critical in marketing terms, as the flights show up in online booking systems as connecting flights, so are lower in the listings than direct flights.

                              Also, how does 6th Freedom compare with 8th and 9th?
                              Sixth freedom is different from eighth or ninth. With the sixth freedom the intermediate stop is always in the home country of the carrier. Eighth and ninth are examples of the high theology of whats called cabotage. In my earlier post (#13 above), I gave the example of a new flight by a Faroese carrier which from later this year will operate twice weekly from Vagar airport in the Faroes to London Stansted with an en route stop at Sumburgh in the Shetlands. Because the carrier has traffic rights from the Shetland to London sector, passengers flying that sector will be eighth freedom passengers.

                              Nice examples of modern ninth freedom flights are Easyjet from Paris to Nice. Or, within the UK, VLM (a Dutch registered carrier) from Liverpool to London City. Or the new Air Berlin flights between Manchester and London Stansted. In fact European aviation legislation grants almost universal seventh, eight and ninth freedom rights to EU registered carriers. Although you didnt specifically ask about seventh freedom examples, there are plenty around (eg. EasyJet from Berlin to Barcelona or Naples).

                              What is the legal status of flight starting and ending in the same country, with a stop in a foreign country?
                              Here you have raised something that is not, as far as I know, actually covered by the nine defined freedoms, and is actually very rare. You know Ive really racked my brains and cannot think of a single modern example. But I can give you a couple of historic cases. For a while in the 90s, I regularly used a now defunct carrier (Macair) to fly from Derry City (LDY) to Birmingham and / or London Stansted. Some flights stopped en route at Carrickfinn (CFN) in Donegal. And for years Manx had a wonderful Sunday afternoon flight from Manchester to Stansted with two en route stops in a foreign land en route, one at Shannon and the other at Waterford. That example also featured in the article in hidden europe magazine (I gave a live link to the full pdf file in #13 above).

                              Nicky Gardner

                              Comment

                              • chornedsnorkack
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Jul 2005
                                • 1108

                                #16
                                Originally posted by hiddeneurope
                                #14. Fascinating comments and queries.


                                You are absolutely right in inferring that it is the sixth freedom that is most laced with ambiguity. I generally would tend towards the stricter definition, so operated by a single carrier, with a single flight number from A to C, with an intermediate stop en route at B (where B is in the registered home country of the carrier, and A and B are, respectively, in different foreign territories) and capable of being ticketed on a single through flight coupon. I would see the issue of deplaning en route as being secondary.
                                But I am not sure whether the keeping vs. changing a flight number and printing 1 vs. 2 flight coupons, or e-tickets, is the main issue - or secondary trickery...
                                Originally posted by hiddeneurope
                                I think there is a big difference here. Oftentimes, less so nowadays that in the past, planes made technical stops in foreign countries en route. If they had traffic rights at the intermediate stop (as Aeroflot usually did on their Shannon stops), then that was a fifth freedom right. Where they had no rights to pick up or set down passengers at that intermediate foreign stop, then that was a second freedom right, even though passengers may deplane for a hour while stopping off (often for refuelling). Sixth freedom applies only where the stop off is not in a foreign country but in the registered home country of the carrier (so EI on BFS-SNN-JFK) or my modern TAROM example (in #13 above) with not just one but two sixth freedom stops en route in Romania while flying from Vienna to Munich. A quirky and a roundabout route, but a great example of 'sixth freedom'.
                                Well, if the passengers get off the aircraft and then return to the same aircraft in the home country of the airline, are they connecting, or are they violating lack of 6th Freedom?
                                Originally posted by hiddeneurope
                                No, not at all. It merely means that the carrier cannot advertise through flights with a single flight number and single coupon from A to C via its home country B. A modern example is Icelandair (FI) with a rich range of connections from Europe to North America via Keflavik in Iceland. London to Boston and Copenhagen to New York are examples. But Icelandair (FI) has no sixth freedom rights for flying between any mainland European State and any North American destination (either nonstop or via its Keflavik hub), so if you fly LHR to BOS with Icelandair youll have two coupons, two flight numbers, even though the transit through the Keflavik hub is usually pretty painless. But the distinction is critical in marketing terms, as the flights show up in online booking systems as connecting flights, so are lower in the listings than direct flights.





                                Here you have raised something that is not, as far as I know, actually covered by the nine defined freedoms, and is actually very rare. You know Ive really racked my brains and cannot think of a single modern example. But I can give you a couple of historic cases. For a while in the 90s, I regularly used a now defunct carrier (Macair) to fly from Derry City (LDY) to Birmingham and / or London Stansted. Some flights stopped en route at Carrickfinn (CFN) in Donegal. And for years Manx had a wonderful Sunday afternoon flight from Manchester to Stansted with two en route stops in a foreign land en route, one at Shannon and the other at Waterford. That example also featured in the article in hidden europe magazine (I gave a live link to the full pdf file in #13 above).

                                Nicky Gardner
                                Oh, imagine a simple example. A Canadian carrier flying from Amnchorage to somewhere in the US main territory with a stop in Vancouver. Which freedom does it violate?

                                There are a lot of detached pieces of countries where stopover abroad could make things more convenient.

                                Comment

                                • hiddeneurope
                                  Junior Member
                                  • Nov 2005
                                  • 22

                                  #17
                                  Sixth Freedom

                                  Oh, imagine a simple example. A Canadian carrier flying from Amnchorage to somewhere in the US main territory with a stop in Vancouver. Which freedom does it violate?
                                  Well, that that violates no freedoms. It would be a classic example of sixth freedom. An Anchorage - Vancouver - Seattle routing by a putative Canadian registered airline would absolutely be sixth freedom. Interestingly, I am pretty confident that no such routing exists.

                                  The US has always been very tetchy about granting fifth or sixth freedom or cabotage (ie. eight or ninth freedom) rights of any kind. So Air Canada flying (for example) a sixth freedom Chicago - Toronto - Boston route is a non-starter as far as the US authorities are concerned.

                                  And (on cabotage) although BA has a London Heathrow - Chicago - Houston and return daily routing (BA294/5), it has no traffic rights on Chicago to Houston and return, which necessarily means artificially constrained low load factors on those internal US sectors. It was this that put paid to the old BA Gatwick-Phoenix-San Diego service.

                                  I have one recent example of the US rarely giving eighth freedom rights to a non-US carrier. That was an Icelandair flight on this recent Christmas Day which flew Orlando - Boston - Reykjavik (effectively combining the Sunday Orlando to Iceland flight with the Sunday Boston to Iceland flight). I am told, and it appeared to be confirmed in the various airline booking sytems and databases (eg. OAG) that this flight was available to be booked purely for the domestic US sector from Florida up to Boston (FI658 at 17.10 ex ORL on 25.12.05, arriving Boston Logan at 19.45).

                                  Even fifth freedom rights over US airports are exceedingly rare. Air Canada flights AC 045/6 are unusual exceptions. These are Sydney - Honolulu - Vancouver flights in which Air Canada have full fifth freedom rights to pick up and set down passengers in Honolulu. This is, I would think, only countenanced by the US authorities because it is a codeshare with UA. Even more unusual is the Saturday Iberia flight from San Pedro Sula (SAP) in Honduras to Miami (IB6132), which continues to Madrid. I believe it is possible to book SAP to MIA with Iberia, which makes this a rare and obscure one-off of the US granting fifth freedom rights to a non-US carrier.

                                  I'll think on the other points you make. You're probing a bit beyond the margin of my knowledge of these complex issues of international regulatory regimes. But it's made me think, and I've enjoyed contributing.

                                  Nicky Gardner

                                  Comment

                                  • chornedsnorkack
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jul 2005
                                    • 1108

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by hiddeneurope
                                    Well, that that violates no freedoms. It would be a classic example of sixth freedom. An Anchorage - Vancouver - Seattle routing by a putative Canadian registered airline would absolutely be sixth freedom. Interestingly, I am pretty confident that no such routing exists.

                                    The US has always been very tetchy about granting fifth or sixth freedom or cabotage (ie. eight or ninth freedom) rights of any kind. So Air Canada flying (for example) a sixth freedom Chicago - Toronto - Boston route is a non-starter as far as the US authorities are concerned.
                                    Would an US airline flying Chicago-Toronto-Boston be acceptable? Or flying to other detached pieces of US with a stopover abroad, like Mainland - Bahamas - Puerto Rico, or Mainland to American Samoa with a landing on non-US soil?
                                    Originally posted by hiddeneurope
                                    And (on cabotage) although BA has a London Heathrow - Chicago - Houston and return daily routing (BA294/5), it has no traffic rights on Chicago to Houston and return, which necessarily means artificially constrained low load factors on those internal US sectors. It was this that put paid to the old BA Gatwick-Phoenix-San Diego service.

                                    I have one recent example of the US rarely giving eighth freedom rights to a non-US carrier. That was an Icelandair flight on this recent Christmas Day which flew Orlando - Boston - Reykjavik (effectively combining the Sunday Orlando to Iceland flight with the Sunday Boston to Iceland flight). I am told, and it appeared to be confirmed in the various airline booking sytems and databases (eg. OAG) that this flight was available to be booked purely for the domestic US sector from Florida up to Boston (FI658 at 17.10 ex ORL on 25.12.05, arriving Boston Logan at 19.45).
                                    Well, the examples of London-Chicago-Houston, London-Phoenix-San Diego, Keflavik-Boston-Orlando all have an internal sector - nonstop flight between airports both in the same countries. That is relatively easy to define as something requiring 8th, 9th or other freedoms.

                                    But if Air Canada flies a flight between Toronto and Chicago and also a flight between Toronto and Boston, how to define whether it is just unrelated 3rd/4th freedom services between Canada and US or whether it is a continuous flight with a stopover which violates lack of some freedoms (which ones?)?

                                    Comment

                                    • zoot horn rollo
                                      Lady Gaga is my queen
                                      • Sep 2005
                                      • 1504

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by hiddeneurope
                                      #14. Fascinating comments and queries.

                                      Here you have raised something that is not, as far as I know, actually covered by the nine defined freedoms, and is actually very rare. You know Ive really racked my brains and cannot think of a single modern example. But I can give you a couple of historic cases. For a while in the 90s, I regularly used a now defunct carrier (Macair) to fly from Derry City (LDY) to Birmingham and / or London Stansted. Some flights stopped en route at Carrickfinn (CFN) in Donegal. And for years Manx had a wonderful Sunday afternoon flight from Manchester to Stansted with two en route stops in a foreign land en route, one at Shannon and the other at Waterford. That example also featured in the article in hidden europe magazine (I gave a live link to the full pdf file in #13 above).

                                      Nicky Gardner
                                      Historic examples would be in the days when HKG-UK services needed to stop en-route as traffic between HKG and the UK was classified as UK domestic traffic. I presume that a similar situation may exist with some services to
                                      French overseas possesions.

                                      I think the whole subject of freedoms is largely a conflict between the rigid and theoretical structures imposed by the regulatory process and the ingenuity displayed by airline network planning teams to get round these strictures and maximise their route network.

                                      I used to have a copy of the air service agreement between the UK and Nepal but I can't lay my hands on it. I remember that it was pretty specific in which airlines could fly, the number of frequencies they could operate, the countries in which en-roue stops could be made but I really wanted to check the particular language used in describing the type of services to be operated. However, these might have been included in the confidential MoU attached to the ASA which I didn't have access to.

                                      It would be interesting to see what the actual text contained in Open Skies agreements is.
                                      I don't want to die, because I don't want to end up like Anita Dobson - Frank Sidebottom, actually.
                                      Thank you

                                      Comment

                                      • chornedsnorkack
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Jul 2005
                                        • 1108

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by zoot horn rollo
                                        Historic examples would be in the days when HKG-UK services needed to stop en-route as traffic between HKG and the UK was classified as UK domestic traffic. I presume that a similar situation may exist with some services to
                                        French overseas possesions.
                                        And while I am rather positive Pitcairn lacks airfield fit for large planes and is only accessible by sea, what is the situation about the Malvinas and the British Indian Ocean Territory? Are they served nonstop from Great Britain metropolis, with refueling in other colonies or with refueling abroad?
                                        Originally posted by zoot horn rollo
                                        I used to have a copy of the air service agreement between the UK and Nepal but I can't lay my hands on it. I remember that it was pretty specific in which airlines could fly, the number of frequencies they could operate, the countries in which en-roue stops could be made but I really wanted to check the particular language used in describing the type of services to be operated. However, these might have been included in the confidential MoU attached to the ASA which I didn't have access to.

                                        It would be interesting to see what the actual text contained in Open Skies agreements is.
                                        Hm, interesting...

                                        Does the air services agreement specify, e. g. that all passengers who fly from GB metropolis to Nepal on Nepal airlines have to return to GB metropolis and all passengers who fly from Hong Kong to Nepal must return to Hong Kong, so that no one is allowed to fly between GB metropolis and Hong Kong through Nepal on a Nepal airline?

                                        Also, does the air services agreement define 6th freedom and contain restrictions on services which Nepal can allow in Air Services Agreements with third countries?

                                        I could figure out an example which might actually might sense...

                                        Lhasa-London with a stopover in Nepal

                                        Indeed, surely it is a headache to load a plane with fuel for transcontinental nonstop flight, then try to get it off a runway in thin air, and then, facing a terrain barely below the ceiling of the intact plane when at MTOW, lose an engine!
                                        Especially when you do not have the passenger load to fill a Boeing 747-400 or access to a 747SP so youd rather get along with something smaller like Boeing 757 or Boeing 767 - and therefore have only one engine left when one has failed.

                                        It could make sense to take only a limited fuel load in Lhasa, take off safely for a short hop over the worst terrain, and then after descending to an airport somewhere lower, fuel the plane to the full and continue with intercontinental flight free of further terrain.

                                        But who should be allowed to operate such routes? UK registered airlines, Chinese registered airlines or Nepal registered airlines?

                                        Comment

                                        Unconfigured Ad Widget

                                        Collapse

                                         

                                        Working...
                                        X