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  • Humberside
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2004
    • 1915

    #41
    Originally posted by LBARULES
    Maybe something they want to keep to themselves Humberside, they dont have to tell you everything..
    I was more refering to andrewm laughing at cloud_9's idea and then appearing to have some plans of his own. I totally understand commercial sensitivity

    Comment

    • David2386
      My new speed record
      • Jul 2004
      • 603

      #42
      PM is Private Message, or indeed Payment Method.

      If your 14 then say 4 years until you reach the same age as the other two who have been in the news, who knows what gap there will be in the market from Aberdeen. Gluck.

      Edited A) because I can and B) cos I kan't spell!
      Last edited by David2386; 27th September 2005, 20:02.
      Google can answer lots of questions, ever tried it?

      Comment

      • Humberside
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2004
        • 1915

        #43
        PM = Private Message

        Comment

        • cloud_9
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Sep 2005
          • 2418

          #44
          [QUOTE=wozza] 'if you can offer a better service for a cheaper price then you could make it, big airlines get greedy and forget about the customer, if you're always working for the customer you should be fine.'


          Wozza does have a point here...well at least I think so!

          Low-cost carriers (easyjet, ryanair, etc.) are good for one thing - cheap flights. The only problem with them is that you have to book months in advance, you can't change or refund your booking and also you get the bare minimum service on board and you have to pay extra for everything else.

          Charter airlines are similar, but not as bad. I currently work at LGW for a ground handling company, we oversee an airline that charge 15 for extra legroom seats - I think that is really harsh, especially for the tall people amongst us...lol!

          Why not create something in between, that way you are going to attract two types of people??

          Comment

          • wozza
            Chelsea Fan
            • Sep 2005
            • 1089

            #45
            Thats my plan, somewhere in the middle, a good compromise.
            What airline charges 15 for extra legroom at LGW, Easyjet?

            Comment

            • StephenM
              Junior Member
              • Sep 2005
              • 2

              #46
              Just wondering, since you are on the topic of aircraft leasing rates (Page 1). How much can you get a Q300 for these days?

              Comment

              • rdc1000
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Jan 2000
                • 1396

                #47
                [QUOTE=cloud_9]
                Originally posted by wozza


                Wozza does have a point here...well at least I think so!

                Low-cost carriers (easyjet, ryanair, etc.) are good for one thing - cheap flights. The only problem with them is that you have to book months in advance, you can't change or refund your booking and also you get the bare minimum service on board and you have to pay extra for everything else.
                That is the whole point though. What you and Wozza do not seem to understand is that leisure travellers and business travellers have different booking requirements. Typically a leisure traveller is price sensitive, they are willing to be flexible with dates and times provided they get a cheap fare. They are able to book a long way in advance because they want to know when they are travelling so that they can book time off work etc. The airlines are actually being nice to the leisure traveller by offering them low fares far in advance.

                The business traveller on the other hand is not so price sensitive; they are willing to pay higher fares in order to get a flight at the time and on the day that they want. The airlines are actually being nice to the leisure traveller by offering them low fares far in advance. Most business travellers will only know 2-5 days before they are due to travel that they have a meeting. I was still changing flight booking yesterday for Friday and booking for a Monday meeting next week.

                With the system Wozza has proposed I see several major issues, which are mainly spill related. I expect that leisure travellers would book up all the seats quite early, thereby preventing business travellers from booking, after a few attempts at booking already full flights the business traveller will give up (remember they are more concerned with booking last minute) and not even consider booking with your airline. Here they have been a victim of the spill effect, the number of passengers who try to book and never get on flights so never try you again!

                They will then go to easyjet or Ryanair or whomever your competitor is, and pay whatever they want to charge. Because they will pay lots then they can also offer leisure travellers a really cheap fare further out from travel date. So your airline will loose the ability to market a long way out because your fare will be substantially more than the 1 deal elsewhere. The only time you can compete will be for the short period between long foresight travellers and short foresight travellers, when your fares are similar or marginally less than the competitor. But remember, by now the leisure traveller wanting to go away very cheaply knows not to look at your website, the business traveller wanting to travel last minute knows not to look at your website, then you leave yourself open to a limited market. So, of the demand on a route, you may allow around 20% to travel with you. On the basis that this would not fill a 737 then youd have to use smaller aircraft to be economically viable, but then that involves higher seat/mile costs and associated costs, so then your fare has to go up slightly, further off putting the leisure traveller. Would you like me to continue??.....

                Comment

                • wozza
                  Chelsea Fan
                  • Sep 2005
                  • 1089

                  #48
                  You don't need to continue, I see your point and you are right

                  Comment

                  • wozza
                    Chelsea Fan
                    • Sep 2005
                    • 1089

                    #49
                    rdc1000, since you seem to be able to provide constructive criticism quite easily please do so on this,

                    What if you were to fly an aircraft, B737 or something, with a business and low cost cabin and depending on the destination alter the bias between the two, i.e more low cost on a flight to say Malaga and less on say a flight to Copenhagen,

                    Cheers,

                    Wozza

                    BTW Is there a viable plan where you can fly both the leisure and business traveller on the same aircraft.

                    Comment

                    • rdc1000
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jan 2000
                      • 1396

                      #50
                      Originally posted by wozza
                      rdc1000, since you seem to be able to provide constructive criticism quite easily please do so on this,

                      What if you were to fly an aircraft, B737 or something, with a business and low cost cabin and depending on the destination alter the bias between the two, i.e more low cost on a flight to say Malaga and less on say a flight to Copenhagen,

                      Cheers,

                      Wozza

                      BTW Is there a viable plan where you can fly both the leisure and business traveller on the same aircraft.
                      All airlines carry both, the mix happens to depend on demand to the destination.

                      This is exactly what happens for many airlines now. Most traditional carriers have moveable curtains fitted to the aircraft, if you sell most seats on a business fare then thats fine, you move the curtain backwards. It has often been the case that people have flown with BA as economy passengers and been sat in the back row of the aircraft, with the curtain divider covering all the seats from that point forward.

                      There is a quality of seat issue there, in that if you want more legroom then it is difficult to achieve, so instead airlines tend to offer benefits such as more space by blanking out the middle seat ina row of three, so the two travellers have nobody between them. The modern version of this is to have a set of three seats in which the middle seat can be made narrower when needed for business and the outer seats grow in width. Lufthansa use this method of seating.

                      http://www.recaro-as.com/index_frames.html This website should illustrate this seating method somewhere.

                      Comment

                      • wozza
                        Chelsea Fan
                        • Sep 2005
                        • 1089

                        #51
                        icelandair also use this type of seat, do you believe it would work for a start up airline and I know the big airlines use this but could this work for a low cost carrier to put in business seats at the front, or a business airline to put in economy seats @ the back,

                        Wozza

                        Comment

                        • rdc1000
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2000
                          • 1396

                          #52
                          Originally posted by wozza
                          icelandair also use this type of seat, do you believe it would work for a start up airline and I know the big airlines use this but could this work for a low cost carrier to put in business seats at the front, or a business airline to put in economy seats @ the back,

                          Wozza
                          Your reference of 'business airline' is a little consfusing, what examles are you thinking of because there have been only limited numbers of pure business airlines and most have folded quickly. As a result it is fair to say that almost all airlines that offer a business class cabin have an economy section.

                          BA CitiExpress does not offer a business class cabin, instead it offers Flexible economy fares.
                          Mearsk Air has 4 levels of cabin, from all inclusive business to buy everything LCC economy.

                          Comment

                          • wozza
                            Chelsea Fan
                            • Sep 2005
                            • 1089

                            #53
                            I wasn't thinking of any business airline in particular, i was speaking hypothetically, i think Maersk Air can seem a bit over the top with four classes on a B737 but it is a good idea

                            Comment

                            • cloud_9
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Sep 2005
                              • 2418

                              #54
                              [QUOTE=rdc1000]

                              That is the whole point though. What you and Wozza do not seem to understand is that leisure travellers and business travellers have different booking requirements. Typically a leisure traveller is price sensitive, they are willing to be flexible with dates and times provided they get a cheap fare. They are able to book a long way in advance because they want to know when they are travelling so that they can book time off work etc. The airlines are actually being nice to the leisure traveller by offering them low fares far in advance.The business traveller on the other hand is not so price sensitive; they are willing to pay higher fares in order to get a flight at the time and on the day that they want.


                              Who said I was interested in the business travel market???

                              That is why I haven't told anyone my plans at the moment, but some of you seem to of jumped to conclusions. When I have completed my plans, then I will let you know what I intend to do...paitence!


                              Jonathan Davies.

                              Comment

                              • LGKR
                                Senior Member
                                • Jan 2000
                                • 670

                                #55
                                makes me wonder why i even read posts here anymore

                                Comment

                                • cloud_9
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Sep 2005
                                  • 2418

                                  #56
                                  Wozza, if you are really serious about setting up your own airline you need to stop and think really carefully beforehand. I know you are quite young, and there is no problem with having a goal to achieve in life, but you need to calm down...

                                  To give you an idea of why it takes so much planning, I recently e-mailed a US based aircraft charter company, and here is the response I got:

                                  "Wet lease rate for minimum service (basic ACMI) would depend on matrix of hours, cycles (landings), and crews. For example, one adhoc flight might rate over $4,000 per hour (I recently arranged same), while 1 year contract at 300 hours flyinh average 4 hour cycles utilizing 5 crews should rate under $3,500 per hour (lower rates if winter only).

                                  Other issues to be considered (for example): aircraft livery and onboard equipment, crew accomodations perdiem transport, maintenance vehicles office storage, insurance for passengers baggage cargo, contingency for fuel escalation, allowance for interrupted operations eg passenger hotel, etc.

                                  Overall, just as general advice, you should anticipate at least USD $5 to $10 million capital (and better double) for startup with 1 or 2 aircraft, more if 5 aircraft, particularly variable depending on whether scheduled charters or regular scheduled service and amount of time from opening to first flight for each aircraft and/or route.

                                  Once initial plan drafted, recommend you next look into licensing, particularly requirement for ATL (air transport license) and traffic rights or charter authorities. Too, if plan for over 4 hour cycles, better to consider dual aisle aircraft; and, if LCC operation (current "buzzword"), rapid highly controlled growth required to achieve economical status."


                                  Hope this elevates your thinking...?


                                  Jonathan Davies.

                                  Comment

                                  • cloud_9
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Sep 2005
                                    • 2418

                                    #57
                                    Just a quick question...

                                    Did anyone ever fly with EUJet when they were in operation?

                                    If so, would you please tell me where you flew from/to and how much you paid for your flights and also what the service was like - especially if you flew into or out of Kent International (Manston).


                                    Many thanks,



                                    Jonathan Davies.

                                    Comment

                                    • Manston Airport
                                      Fokker Crazy
                                      • Jul 2005
                                      • 4798

                                      #58
                                      Originally posted by cloud_9

                                      I think that is the case with EUJet, they discovered a market from Kent International, and then went out to expand their fleet in too much of a hurry, which ultimaly led to their downfall.

                                      Anyone else got any opinions, I too would be interested in hearing 'em.


                                      Jonathan Davies.
                                      I have sent you a reply by the way Jonathan i might have to re-send you another one in the morning as i thought you was on about a flight simulator airline what a tit i am . The thing with EUjet was they started 21 routes with just 4 aircraft and before they went bust 18 routes with 4 aircraft what they should off done was start off with five or six routes at start then add more routes.What airlines fly out off ABZ.

                                      no i never flew with eujet wish i did its sad they have gone
                                      James
                                      Last edited by Manston Airport; 29th September 2005, 23:49.
                                      Looking forward to the 2010 airshow Season

                                      sigpic

                                      Comment

                                      • wozza
                                        Chelsea Fan
                                        • Sep 2005
                                        • 1089

                                        #59
                                        From Aberdeen you get the following: -

                                        City Star Airlines
                                        Wideroe
                                        SAS
                                        KLM
                                        BA
                                        Easyjet
                                        Ryanair
                                        Bristow, Bond, CHC Scotia (oil helicopters)
                                        Flightline (Bae 146 from flightline flying oil workers to lerwick)
                                        Several Charter airlines
                                        Flybe
                                        Bmi
                                        Eastern

                                        Comment

                                        • rdc1000
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jan 2000
                                          • 1396

                                          #60
                                          Originally posted by wozza
                                          I wasn't thinking of any business airline in particular, i was speaking hypothetically, i think Maersk Air can seem a bit over the top with four classes on a B737 but it is a good idea
                                          I actually think its a good concept, though we've yet to see fully how it plays out. The classes are nto necessarily defined by different seating options, it is based on ticket type, ie, your requirement for flxibility/costs etc.

                                          Comment

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