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By: - 24th July 2003 at 03:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Never
By: - 24th July 2003 at 09:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well even in slight almost impossible situation where Boeing went out of business in the commercial world they still have huge military contracts... which ultimatly should always keep Boeing in business, now Airbus has an advantage as far as being government supported, and lets not forget Boeing accounts for far more than 50% of all commercial planes...
By: - 24th July 2003 at 10:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lets see it this way....
1: Boeing is doing pretty good with there short haul programme, they have loads of 737 orders.
2: Maybe they are not doing as good as Airbus in the long-haul/wide body segement but they do have enough orders right now to keep them going.
3: They are too big a company to just perish like that, as some people make it sound. Dont forget they are aviation pioneers they know what to do in crises, they have tasted huge succes and downfall also.
4: Just because Airbus is giving tough competition its not fair to assume that now Boeing cnat do it. Maybe the pruposed B7E7 kicks the a** out of Airbus, but "just".
5: Airbus is running on profits right now, because the cheap prices they are offering on there products which they hope to get even by sales of the A380, this is there stragtegy and at current rate i see Airbus in loss in the future.
6: Do not forget Boeing is doing well in military sales as well which can help if the civil aviation divisions plums into depression
By: - 24th July 2003 at 10:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Right Kabir.
Just one thing to be perfectly objective.
Airbus has been highly subsidized by tax $$. It's not that true right now.
On the other hand, boeing has loads of miltary contracts which are some kind of subsidize as well.
Those contracts are a good shield to protect the company.
Anyway I don't imagine Boeing going under.
By: - 24th July 2003 at 10:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Dont forget they are aviation pioneers they know what to do in crises
Fokker probably thought the same! Having a nice history means nothing.
I do not think Boeing will leave the commercial market, but there will be fewer products. The 757 and to a lesser extent the 767 are on their way out, at least for commercial operaters (thoughy they will still be interesting for the military, in particular the 767).
The 717 is still a long shot. If the Star Alliance indeed orders the 717 I think this program will be safe, otherwise there may be a problem.
The 737 is going quite nicely. The 747 will probably also remain for the foreseeable future, maybe upgraded. This is still the freighter of choise.
The 777 is going very nice as well, no doubt it is here to stay for quite a while to come.
The 7E7 (or whatever it will be called) will cater for a large market. Both replacement of old planes and likely new planes. I expect it to be succesful. We'll have to see...
By: - 24th July 2003 at 10:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You cannot compare Fokker and Boeing in this context...Fokker never made it as big as Boeing hence lacked pure experience.
Plus 717 is not going as well as Boeing would want......it is the lowest selling aircraft in Boeings history, anyway bringing out a referbished MD model wasent very bright on Boeings part.
By: - 24th July 2003 at 12:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Boeing are here to stay.
But things have changed and Boeing will no longer be allowed to dominate the commercial aviation market. They will have to adapt if they are going to regain market share, but things would have to go disasterously wrong for them to fail completely.
Airbus however should not be complacent.
By: - 24th July 2003 at 16:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Boeing also has high overhead with organized labour. That can't be good for the their bottom line, much like the airlines.
By: - 24th July 2003 at 16:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Originally posted by KabirT
Plus 717 is not going as well as Boeing would want......it is the lowest selling aircraft in Boeings history, anyway bringing out a referbished MD model wasent very bright on Boeings part.
Actually the 717 was an airplane that Boeing nevered wanted since it was designed by MD. They just inherited the baggage when they bought them out. Boeing had to fullfil orders already in place so they had to maintain the production line. I'm suprised that it didn't find a larger nitch some where, I hear its a great plane to fly and fly on.
The biggest market change in the last 10 years and at least for the next 10 years is the 50-100 seat aircraft. Neither Boeing or Airbus decided to enter that arena leaving it to 2 unknowns in the commerical aviation industry to meet those needs. Both Canadair and Embraer gambled by putting these aircraft out there and they hit it big. Nearly every airline in the US is deferring Boeing and Airbus aircraft deliveries while putting in orders for the ERJ or CRJ's.
I think both Airbus and Boeing are going to see their orders slow here and any new aircraft will be only to replace aging fleets not grow them. At my company we're taking 3 new ERJ's a month and have been doing that for 3+ years while our parent company has taken in less than 20 737/767's in that same time. I bet Boeing and Airbus are kicking themselves now.
By: - 24th July 2003 at 16:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
perhaps WD....but i think making that move was a little late by Boeing.
By: - 25th July 2003 at 17:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It seems to me with the number of abortive projects recently (747X, Sonic Cruiser etc) that Boeing themselves are not sure where to go from here.
Can't see them fading though. The 7E7 looks much more in line with their view of long haul aviation's future - smaller aircraft flying point-to-point direct rather than hub-hub. I think they may well be right, and that the numbers of new RegionalJet routes are evidence of this.
However, I also think they may have underestimated future demand for really big aircraft.
Mike
By: - 25th July 2003 at 22:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Actually I think the 717 has more latent potential than the 737. It has been proven it can be stretched, and I think the MD-90s were always slightly more efficient than the 737s?
It is a good aircraft. To a large extent it's failure is down to Boeing being scared of harming the 737 line.
Also, why A and B never entered the RJ marked is beyond me!
Posts: 37
By: binx - 23rd July 2003 at 21:59
Boeing Co.
Results: The Chicago-based company reported a loss of $192-million (U.S.) for the second quarter on Wednesday and said it expects 2004 profits to fall well short of previous forecasts. The loss for the April-through-June period amounted to 24 cents a share, compared with earnings of $779 million or 96 cents a share for the same period a year earlier. That was better than the recently lowered consensus estimate of analysts surveyed by Thomson First Call, who had pegged the loss at 43 cents a share. Revenues slid 8 per cent to $12.8-billion from $13.9-billion, a decline marked by a 24-per-cent drop in its commercial airplanes division, to $5.8-billion. Defense revenues jumped 7 per cent to surpass the airplane unit at $6.6-billion.
Notable: The results, dominated by a $1.1-billion charge reflecting the problems in its satellite and launch businesses, signal Boeing's first back-to-back quarterly losses since 1997, following its takeover of McDonnell Douglas. The world's largest aerospace company lowered its estimate for next year's earnings by 35 cents per share to a range of $1.75 to $1.95 cents a share. Boeing also narrowed its forecast for 2004 deliveries to between 275 and 290 airplanes - tightened from 275 to 300 - although it said it remains on track to deliver 280 planes this year. It pegged revenue at $52-billion for next year instead of a range of $52-billion to $54 billion.
With its first back to back quarterly loss since 1997, a constantly shrinking delivery forecast and few new substantial orders in the last year, does anybody think Boeing is starting to fade slowly into the night?