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Germanwings airliner crashes in French Alps

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  • fah619
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Feb 2005
    • 408

    #81
    TomcatVIP:

    Why we need to find the FDR!

    Did the Capt attempt to activate the "numeric pad" outside the cabin door?? Will this parameter be recorded in the FDR when found?? Will the timing match the activation of the toggle switch door inside the cockpit to the "lock position" ??
    Last edited by fah619; 29th March 2015, 09:04.

    Comment

    • slipperysam
      mmmm.... donuts
      • May 2006
      • 784

      #82
      Flight Data recorder was found... some 4 days ago.
      Its apparently badly damaged. Nothing has been heard since

      Originally posted by fah619 View Post
      TomcatVIP:

      Why we need to find the FDR!

      Did the Capt attempt to activate the "numeric pad" outside the cabin door?? Will this parameter be recorded in the FDR when found?? Will the timing match the activation of the toggle switch door inside the cockpit to the "lock position" ??
      We are 100% SNAFU

      Comment

      • TomcatViP
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Nov 2011
        • 6122

        #83
        Originally posted by fah619 View Post
        TomcatVIP:

        Why we need to find the FDR!

        Did the Capt attempt to activate the "numeric pad" outside the cabin door?? Will this parameter be recorded in the FDR when found?? Will the timing match the activation of the toggle switch door inside the cockpit to the "lock position" ??
        FDR can't vanish like this. They will certainly find it.

        Using the numeric pad outside the cabin is a standard recommended procedure to request access to the cockpit or in the case of an emergency. Once the user have keyed in the 7 digit code, one time, an alarm (the buzzer ) sound during 1 to 9s indicating a request to access the cockpit. It's up to the Pilots to open the door by using the UNLOCK position on the 3 mode button in the central pedestal.

        Click image for larger version

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        Note that each time someone request an access, the buzzer sounds for 1 to 9 sec (depending of the presets).

        If an emergency procedure to access has to be done by someone, a code with two seven digits have to be typed in on the door keypad. The Buzzer inside the cockpit then sounds continuously for 30 seconds before an access can be made during a laps of only 5 seconds.

        There is also a third mode: the pilots in the cockpit can select the LOCK mode in the central pedestal panel to lock the door, mute the buzzer and deny any access for at least 5 min (5 to 20 min depending of the presets) to someone executing the emergency procedure.


        Without any buzz sound reported by the prosecutor, the only valid hypo is that the switch was on LOCK mode and the preset have been put on a delay superior to 8 min (the remaining flight time).

        Notice also that the access procedure routinely used looks quite complicated and annoying for a crew trying to concentrate on its assigned task. 7 digit access, buzz sound, delay that have to be monitored etc... I have no hesitation thinking that many crew might use the more convenient LOCK mode as a standard procedure (which acts like a manual mode the time the delay is set). Hence the soft knocking initially by the returning pilot (Pilot Exit, Copilot switch to Lock (or the button is set on lock continuously), Pilot return and knock at the door or use the interphone. Copilot unlock via the switch (button turned from "Lock" to "Unlock" and then back to "Lock" once the pilot is back inside).

        Frankly, the design of such a system sounds awkward, time consuming and impractical. Especially when modern secure lock are now an accessible technology with cost largely compatible with the security needs and the price of a plane.

        There is also no reason to think that the pilot did not use the keypad since we know he tried by any means to regain access to the cockpit.

        Last edited by TomcatViP; 29th March 2015, 19:05.

        Comment

        • TomcatViP
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Nov 2011
          • 6122

          #84
          Originally posted by slipperysam View Post
          Flight Data recorder was found... some 4 days ago.
          Its apparently badly damaged. Nothing has been heard since
          Do you have a link ? I heard only the French President saying that the outer shell of the FDR was found but without the mechanism (what was denied latter for obvious reasons).
          Last edited by TomcatViP; 29th March 2015, 04:32.

          Comment

          • topspeed
            Get on uppah !
            • Jan 2009
            • 2660

            #85
            Where is the FDR situated in a A320 ?

            How hard can it be to search and find it ?
            If it looks good, it will fly good !
            -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


            http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

            Comment

            • fah619
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Feb 2005
              • 408

              #86
              TomcatVIP:

              ...I heard the same over the local news that the FDR was found but was in bad shape & with critical items missing. Are we talking here about the 'memory chips" ?? were there any photos/link of this release in Europe?? BTW the movement of every knob, toggle switch is recorded into these memory chips depending on the a/c model & updates made to it. Going back to my notes on AF 447!!

              p.s notes fm "The Wall Street Journal, (U.S) Th 26 Mar 2015.

              French Investigators Extract Voices, Sounds From Black Box ... (G/W Flt 9525).

              Last edited by fah619; 29th March 2015, 16:04.

              Comment

              • topspeed
                Get on uppah !
                • Jan 2009
                • 2660

                #87
                Originally posted by fah619 View Post
                TomcatVIP:

                ...I heard the same over the local news that the FDR was found but was in bad shape & with critical items missing. Are we talking here about the 'memory chips" ?? were there any photos/link of this release in Europe?? BTW the movement of every knob, toggle switch is recorded into these memory chips depending on the a/c model & updates made to it. Going back to my notes on AF 447!!

                p.s notes fm "The Wall Street Journal, (U.S) Th 26 Mar 2015.

                French Investigators Extract Voices, Sounds From Black Box ... (G/W Flt 9525).

                This sounds a bit like the FEDEX flight where the ex-worker tried a suicide to get insurance money.

                The impact speed ( 400 kts ) indicates ( to me ) that the co-pilot flying the Germanwings A320 tried to disintegrate the plane so badly that it would be impossible to gain data from the flight data recorder ( FDR ). CVR working /operative made this futile.
                If it looks good, it will fly good !
                -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


                http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

                Comment

                • slipperysam
                  mmmm.... donuts
                  • May 2006
                  • 784

                  #88
                  Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
                  Do you have a link ? I heard only the French President saying that the outer shell of the FDR was found but without the mechanism (what was denied latter for obvious reasons).

                  Seems more and more strange... there are articles from4 days ago saying it was found. And they all say it was too badly damaged.
                  Now theres articles saying the search for the FDR continues.

                  Ok call me sceptical... but again the funny smell of something not right appears

                  http://airwaysnews.com/blog/2015/03/...fdr-retrieved/

                  Despite early informations from The New York Times, indicating that the Flight Data Recorder (FDR) had been found in a much worse state than the CVR, BEA assures that the FDR is still missing, and that search teams have prioritized the location of the missing unit.
                  http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/wo...rash.html?_r=1
                  At the crash site, a senior official working on the investigation said, workers found the casing of the plane’s other so-called black box, the flight data recorder, but the memory card containing data on the plane’s altitude, speed, location and condition was not inside, apparently having been thrown loose or destroyed by the impact.
                  We are 100% SNAFU

                  Comment

                  • fah619
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Feb 2005
                    • 408

                    #89
                    SSam/TomcatVIP:

                    .. I agree, some things still do not add up in the so called "black box" equation. Questionable at this time, by a well known B-777 Capt is how exactly the BEA managed to detect/hear normal breathing fm the FO when the cockpit noise environment makes a bit diff to detect in the VCR??... unless, He added the FO was using an oxygen mask.

                    Comment

                    • TomcatViP
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Nov 2011
                      • 6122

                      #90
                      Hi Fah619,

                      The usage of the Oxygen mask is an interesting hypothesis that could concur with others fact and hypo.

                      If we consider that he was taking some drugs like anxiolytics or Betablockers to manage his anxiety, he might have resorted to pure oxygen to counter a feel of dizziness right after the Pilot exited the cockpit. Drug to manage a glaucoma are known to have side effect with alt. And we know that he was consulting for severe vision problem that could potentially put him out of Flying.

                      Beta blockers reduce the maximum pulse rate and therefore maximal workload, can cause lethargy
                      We know from the prosecutor that the conversation was slowing down and that he appeared very calm prior to be left alone in the cockpit.


                      Anyhow, it would be amazing to see the medical "experts" world to jump into the case and stop the wild speculations (this includes the above). There is a medical branch dedicated to flight at high altitude. I am sure that this will do for plenty interviews and captivating "on-air" time.

                      Regarding the FDR, I do agree that something goes wrong. But please, keep in mind that communication is not sciences and spokes men/women are rarely mechanical engineer. It's rather plausible that someone has briefed the media misunderstanding the Voice data recorder for the Flight data recorder.

                      In the case of Mr Hollande, It's unacceptable from a president that made the deliberate choice to interfere in an ongoing inquiry, but the ring of aeronautical experts around the French president have already prove itself to be of dubious* quality (see the "first world electrical plane" saga story as a reference).

                      We also now that the Copilot consulted a lot always emphasing on serious problem (eyesight, depression):

                      Lubitz told the neuropsychologist that he was too stressed with work, the European government official briefed on the investigation said.

                      The official said he was not aware of any suicidal tendencies reported by Lubitz to the doctors,
                      He might just have been collecting prescription to get access to drug that could enhance his performance and help him to deal with a situation that have outpaced him in the past.




                      Source:
                      Drug use and Misuse in Mountaineering 2014


                      *to speak galantly
                      Last edited by TomcatViP; 31st March 2015, 22:00.

                      Comment

                      • TomcatViP
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Nov 2011
                        • 6122

                        #91
                        Some relevant facts about FDR:

                        . The SSFDR records the most recent 25 hours of flight and records more than 1300 parameters. The SSFDR is a 256 word per second (wps) data rate recorder.

                        .Weight: around 7 kg

                        . Sustainable Impact Shock: around 3500 G for 5 ms (G means one time the gravity acceleration).

                        .Sustain Fire Temperature: around 1100C for 30 min


                        At 800kph (222m/s) and 7kg, the max admissible acceleration is not out of design parameters (obviously). Voice Recorder and FDR have the same design parameters. FDR are somewhat more resilient due to the usage of solid state technology.


                        Source:
                        Honeywell via the Malaysian Gov.

                        Comment

                        • fah619
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Feb 2005
                          • 408

                          #92
                          Tomcat VIP:

                          Hi! Tks for the info/data on the FDR. Plz clarify for the audience: How many of the so called 'black boxes" are on an AB 320 1990 model/Newer models?? Is the data of the FDR recorded in a separate box?? .

                          p.s Any status/news of the reason for the 20'-30' delay at Barcelona prior to take-off??

                          Comment

                          • TomcatViP
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Nov 2011
                            • 6122

                            #93
                            New on-board cell-phone video surfaces

                            Paris Match and Bild obtained a video taken during the final seconds of the fated Germanwings flight 4U9525 and found among the wreckage by a source close to the investigation. Its origin – a cell phone – was clear. The scene was so chaotic that it was hard to identify people, but the sounds of the screaming passengers made it perfectly clear that they were aware of what was about to happen to them. One can hear cries of “My God” in several languages. Metallic banging can also be heard more than three times, perhaps of the pilot trying to open the cockpit door with a heavy object. Towards the end, after a heavy shake, stronger than the others, the screaming intensifies. Then nothing.

                            Also:
                            Lufthansa was made aware of the copilot Depression in 2009

                            Lufthansa, meanwhile, announced that co-pilot Andreas Lubitz told told his Lufthansa flight training school in 2009 that he had a "previous episode of severe depression."
                            Watch it On CNN


                            Loud Bang 1 min before crash might bring new light to the two shepherds testimony

                            What we know from Bild & ParisMatch
                            10:40

                            A violent sound can be heard outside. At the same time, inside, screaming. The Airbus hits the mountain with its right wing.

                            No other sound, save for the alarms and the screaming passengers.



                            10:41

                            The airplane hits the Estrop mountain range at 5000 feet (1500 meters) at 800 km/h.
                            And the witnesses account that appeared in the local press the day of the incident on FranceTVInfo website:

                            We were between 11 am and noon, at the foot of the mountain Tromas, when we saw an airliner that had just got around the mountain on the right. It was flying low, and its trajectory was curious. But we were at 1300 meters, with a large mountain that rises up to 2500 meters in front, we did not realize it was flying so low. And, its trajectory, we thought he was flying from Nice rather than Marseille.

                            At the same time, we saw a fighter plane that seemed to make a move to avoid it. From so far away, it was even as they would collide. It was certainly looking for him, and must have had already spot it. We often have military planes flying around for exercice. They make a lot of noise. Moreover, they frighten our cattel. So, we did not hear the explosion when the plane crashed, but we realized afterwards that they had probably been the last to see this airplane.

                            Tromas is 2 500 meters high and behind the Three Dioceses top off at 2900 meters. The the plane might have seek for a way out, a way out. But this is a dead-end. The aircraft then went crashing down the side of the neck Mariaud, probably on the cliffs of the massif of Three Dioceses. The fighter has certainly seen what happened. We realized after he had to be sent [on the scene]. "

                            According to them it seemed as if the plane was in a ctrld flight, flying low in the valley and a fighter jet (other sources stated a Mirage 2K) was monitoring or searching for it and nearly collided.


                            Also @Fah619

                            Last leaked document confirms Copilot was breathing through the on-board Oxygen Mask

                            Despite the deafening noises, Lubitz’s breathing can cleary be heard through an oxygen mask he put on. He is breathing normally. The plane is at 13000 feet (4000 meters).

                            Also:
                            Cockpit door locked via "LOCK" mode (hence no buzzer sound)

                            Lubitz is alone in the cockpit. He locks the armored door with the “Lock” button
                            (Extracted from the transcript of the voice recorder on ParisMatch/Bild)



                            Sources:
                            ParisMatch (link in English)
                            CNN.COM
                            KeyPub Post#9
                            http://www.francetvinfo.fr/
                            Last edited by TomcatViP; 31st March 2015, 20:46.

                            Comment

                            • TomcatViP
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Nov 2011
                              • 6122

                              #94
                              cell phones have been collected [...] but [...] they "hadn't been exploited yet." !?!

                              Lt. Col. Jean-Marc Menichini, a French Gendarmerie spokesman in charge of communications on rescue efforts around the Germanwings crash site, told CNN that the Paris Match and Bild reports of a video recorded in the final seconds before the crash were "completely wrong" and "unwarranted." He explained that cell phones have been collected on the site but that they "hadn't been exploited yet."
                              A strange statement that won't help those mourning their losses.


                              Notice the plural form.


                              Source:
                              CNN.com
                              Last edited by TomcatViP; 31st March 2015, 20:48.

                              Comment

                              • fah619
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Feb 2005
                                • 408

                                #95
                                TomcatVip:

                                Hi Again! Tks for the latest info & data on Flt 9525. That's a pretty swift move of a memory card from a found cell phone. It's not clear yet if it's the real thing. They do however, have the tendency to provide data after crashes in the past.

                                The mountain witnesses account is also a bit off the time line. They might have seen one a/c but not both. It took the French ATCs 4-5 minutes to raise the alarm & then it will take some 15-20 to get a Mirage in place to investigate. Unless there was a French AB nearby. Rumors & leaks seem to be all over the place.

                                How was the source (BEA?) able to confirm that the pilot was on O2 mask???
                                Last edited by fah619; 1st April 2015, 00:10.

                                Comment

                                • Hand87_5
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jan 2000
                                  • 4781

                                  #96
                                  According to the French news , the second recorder (D.F.D.R) has just been retrieved.
                                  Last edited by Hand87_5; 2nd April 2015, 15:05.

                                  Comment

                                  • 27vet
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Nov 2009
                                    • 2700

                                    #97
                                    I am very cautious about what I believe in the media. A lot of "information" has been leaked and other does not make sense to me.
                                    sigpicHindsight is what you see from the tailgunner's position...

                                    Comment

                                    • Newforest
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Apr 2005
                                      • 8893

                                      #98
                                      I agree with you, too many armchair detectives. Let's hope the FDR is readable!
                                      http://www.flightmemory.com/ I have been round the world 11.83 times!

                                      Comment

                                      • fah619
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Feb 2005
                                        • 408

                                        #99
                                        27Vet/NewForest:

                                        Hi I completely agree! Now with the FDR (if readable) has to match the statements/time-line made on the CVR.

                                        Comment

                                        • TomcatViP
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Nov 2011
                                          • 6122

                                          The press is now interested by the details of the medical prescriptions that the Copilot was collecting.

                                          One that was cited is the benzodiazepine that is known for its increased risk of hypoxia at altitude.

                                          With benzodiazepines, if AMS is not clearly excluded, there is a theoretical risk of worsening AMS and
                                          hypoxia especially if a higher dose of Temazepam is use (greater than 15mg) . However to date there
                                          are few if any studies describing the exact effects of high doses of benzodiazepine at altitude, but
                                          common sense and experience suggest higher doses are inadvisable at altitude and in any doses
                                          where AMS is clearly documented.
                                          We heard also today about traces of a rather strange and convenient web search on his Tablet just week prior the incident. He seems in particular to have been interested by how the door locking mechanism of the plane he was regularly flying use to work.

                                          Really surprising. And wasn't he supposed to own at least the pilot manual ?


                                          Regarding the recovered cellphone video, it does not have to have be sourced physically from a cell phone memory. Military Monitoring activity involves routinely aircraft flying above zone to intercept communications.

                                          The Justice Department is scooping up data from thousands of mobile phones through devices deployed on airplanes that mimic cellphone towers.
                                          The dedicated aircraft in Fr Air Force are the C160 Gabriel (sighted at Montpelier on the beginning of March) and (to be dully assessed) the C-135FR such as the one reported overflying the zone for hours that day.
                                          Last edited by TomcatViP; 18th July 2015, 22:54.

                                          Comment

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