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Germanwings airliner crashes in French Alps

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    #21
    Sounds rather strange to me. I can't see official sources releasing any preliminary findings so soon.
    Engine Failure:.... A condition which occurs when all fuel tanks mysteriously become filled with air.

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      #22
      Originally posted by ~Alan~ View Post
      Sounds rather strange to me. I can't see official sources releasing any preliminary findings so soon.
      Weird also that we haven't heard so far about German experts being flown to France to join the investigation team. [EDIT: 3 arrived this morning]


      A Lufthansa spokesman said the carrier was aware of the Times story, adding: "We have no information from the authorities that confirms this report and we are seeking more information. We will not take part in speculation on the causes of the crash. "
      Also, something seemed wrong in the procedure:

      are co-pilots supposed to be left alone in the cockpit?

      "Procedurally, something was very wrong," said Glen Winn, an aviation instructor at the University of Southern California and an expert in aviation security and anti-terrorism.

      "You ask any pilot, they’ll tell you the same thing," Winn said. "They don’t leave a person alone in the cockpit. They don’t do it. Nobody does that."
      [...]
      typical procedure is for a flight attendant to use a food cart to block access to the cockpit when the pilot opens the door to leave. A flight attendant is supposed to remain in the cockpit and open the door for the pilot upon his or her return.
      When the flight crew does not respond to requests for entry, the door can also be unlocked by
      the cabin crew, by entering a two to seven-digit code (programmed by the airline) on the keypad,
      installed on the lateral side of the Forward Attendant Panel (FAP).
      The door is bulletproof and fully compliant with rapid decompression
      [...]
      In case of an electrical supply failure, the door is automatically unlocked, but remains
      closed.
      [...]

      [A] buzzer sounds in the cockpit for 1 to 9 s to indicate that a routine access request has been
      made, or sounds continuously if an emergency access procedure has been initiated.
      We shld hear that sound on the Voice Recorder unless the Lock mode was activated (read bellow).


      Some hve argued that the co-pilot might hve remain conscious since he had to deny an Emergency entry via the keypad, but there is a Lock mode available on the switch button on the central pedestal ctrl panel in the cockpit (3 position Unlock, Norm and lock) :

      LOCK position : Once the button has been moved to this position, the door is locked ; emergency access, the buzzer, and the keypad are inhibited for a preselected time (5 to 20 min).
      It is possible that this mode could hve been used by default by some crew or companies.


      Source:
      Reuters.com
      La Times
      Airbus A320 Operating Manual
      Last edited by TomcatViP; 26th March 2015, 09:17.

      Comment


        #23
        We have the same scenario as in the rescent UK Voyager report.

        Bellow an illustration to depict flight stick mode

        Click image for larger version

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        If you push once, you need to pull back to retrieve initial trajectory. With a conventional plane, the trajectory is an equilibrum btw speed and height (as a function of the trim level).

        In the case of the German A320, if the co-pilot once left alone in the cockpit felt unconscious (incapacitated) and pushed inadvertently the stick, the plane would have stabilized in a dive with the AP and safety systems regulating the acceleration and max allowed speed.

        from Airbus manual:
        Flight path stability instead of speed stability
        - control inputs are made to alter the flight path, not
        to hold it.

        Effectively, if there is nobody anymore to alter a wrong input... Would you like your steering wheel acting the same?

        But we hve alrdy discussed all that in the Stuntman thread and around AF447 with the ridiculous cheap spring mounted stick mechanism endorsed by Airbus.

        Source:
        A319-320-321 Flight Deck and Systems Briefing for Pilots
        Last edited by TomcatViP; 26th March 2015, 09:23.

        Comment


          #24
          Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
          In the case of the German A320, if the co-pilot once left alone in the cockpit felt unconscious (incapacitated)
          So how did the door override lock get engaged?

          Comment


            #25
            Originally posted by Amiga500 View Post
            So how did the door override lock get engaged?
            I think it might be some sort of habits or procedure to keep crew member safe from being held in hostage for the password.

            Preset is only 5 min but can be extended manually. That might be why the tension took time to rise in the voice of the Pilot lock out.

            So, in that hypo, the Pilot exit, the copi lock the door and then experience something that let him incapacitated...

            Comment


              #26
              Agree with Amiga, we have a virtually identical system on the Embraer195/175, it would take positive action from a crew member to override an attempt by anyone trying to gain access to the flightdeck.
              http://www.findmadeleine.com

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                #27
                Lock mode available on the switch button on the central pedestal ctrl panel in the cockpit (3 position Unlock, Norm and lock) :

                In the aircraft Manual:
                LOCK position : Once the button has been moved to this position, the door is locked ; emergency access, the buzzer, and the keypad are inhibited for a preselected time (5 to 20 min).

                Last edited by TomcatViP; 26th March 2015, 11:03.

                Comment


                  #28
                  Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
                  I think it might be some sort of habits or procedure to keep crew member safe from being held in hostage for the password.
                  Yes, thats the idea - but its not something that is engaged until required. Procedure would be strictly not to arm this system unless required - exactly because of any unforeseen medical emergency to the pilot in the cockpit.

                  [i.e. when the cabin crew/would be hijacker are battering on the door looking access codes.]

                  Comment


                    #29
                    Alps crash

                    The Marseille prosecutor has just said during interview, that 'voluntary' actions of the co-pilot resulted in the crash.

                    Comment


                      #30
                      It;s just been announced on the BBC Website that the co-pilot deliberately locked the captain out of the cockpit and crashed intentionally. If correct this makes the event even more awful
                      Mike

                      Comment


                        #31
                        Sadly my own suspision seems to have been confirmed this morning. The autopilot would have flown the aircraft to Duseldorf dispite any theries of decompression. Shortly after reaching 39000 ft, a new heading and slow rate of decent seems to have been selected by one of the pilots overriding the autopilot. My thoughts are with the passengers and crew caught up in this horrific event.
                        Bomb Gone Skipper sigpic

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                          #32
                          Certainly sounds like the co-pilot locked the Captain out of the cockpit - if a person has a suicide wish why do they also feel it right they take 150 other innocent people along with them? Just jump off a bridge instead...
                          Under my gruff exterior lies an even gruffer interior...

                          行雲流水

                          Warbirdskies Blog

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                            #33
                            I agree Bob.
                            The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its original size.

                            Comment


                              #34
                              Yep Suicide, agree with BOB, go do it where it doesn't effect others..

                              see

                              http://www.theguardian.com/world/liv...updates-4u9525

                              Comment


                                #35
                                Suicide committed by himself, would hardly get a mention in his local rag. However, by taking all those other unfortunate people with him, he has gained World Wide publicity, and his name will go down in the History books of Aviation.
                                Jim.
                                Lincoln .7
                                There is no such thing as a problem, just a solution!!

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                                  #36
                                  Information is being updated directly from the German Prosecutor's office. Andreas Lubitz can presumably be described as a mass murderer. The aircraft impacted at 700kph.
                                  Charlie

                                  Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

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                                    #37
                                    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...in-French-Alps
                                    Charlie

                                    Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

                                    Comment


                                      #38
                                      Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
                                      That low?

                                      edit:

                                      But you might be right. Searching for crash field under clouds cover. The 135 take a path along the mountain ridge (hence looking as if it flew from Nice for observer on the ground) and the fighter a more direct approach following the A320 trajectory.

                                      The 135 might then have stayed airborne as a radio relay for the advanced frwd base for the rescue team the time proper comunication devices were brought in.

                                      Ok it fits now.
                                      That seems logical to me.
                                      The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its original size.

                                      Comment


                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by charliehunt View Post
                                        Andreas Lubitz can presumably be described as a mass murderer. The aircraft impacted at 700kph.
                                        I wouldn't have thought there would be any doubt that the thing was a mass murderer - deliberately crashing an aircraft with 150 people on board must surely count as murder.
                                        2009 - the first year without any flights, the first year I lost a holiday, the first and last year I book the bloody Eurostar
                                        Louise

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                                          #40
                                          Gives the airlines an awful conundrum.
                                          Lock the door to keep nutters out or lock the door and keep nutters in?

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