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Missing Malaysian Airlines B777

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  • Comet
    Belgian Beer Expert
    • Jan 2000
    • 2138

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...arch-area.html
    2009 - the first year without any flights, the first year I lost a holiday, the first and last year I book the bloody Eurostar
    Louise

    Comment

    • 27vet
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Nov 2009
      • 2700

      Go look and see.
      sigpicHindsight is what you see from the tailgunner's position...

      Comment

      • 27vet
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Nov 2009
        • 2700

        The last cockpit conversations have been released and can be heard here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TURvs1g4S04
        sigpicHindsight is what you see from the tailgunner's position...

        Comment

        • TomcatViP
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Nov 2011
          • 6122

          The initial report have been posted by the Malaysian gov with cargo manifest and estimated route:

          Here it is on CNN (with radio records)


          Resume (Time are local and stated in MYT) :
          - 0041 MYT Take-off (fuel load unknown but supposed to be full as stated earlier by MA)
          -0107 last ACARS transmissions (
          -0119 KLATCC cleared MH370 for HCMATCC (Vietnam)
          -0121:04 Last radar observation of MH370 as it passed over waypoint
          -0121:13 Radar contact lost (probably the time interval btw two "ping")
          -0138 HCMATCC request info to KLATCC about MH370
          - From 0138 to 0530 attempts to contact MH370 failed
          -0530: Search rescue OP initiated

          The released manifest show only that 2t of electronics eq. were carried in the cargo bay including ION batteries*.

          The satellite tracking show a speed ranging from 325 to 350kts and and alt from 2000 to 2800nm (10 to 15ktft)



          *Wonder if somebody knows a scientific study regarding heated ION batteries (consumer products) and the effects of altitude.
          Last edited by TomcatViP; 2nd May 2014, 01:21.

          Comment

          • Bmused55
            Aaahh Emu!
            • Oct 2003
            • 11136

            I can't help but feel this is going to be the "Stardust" of the 21st century.

            The uninitiated should click here
            Bmused55

            Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below and smite thee.

            My Blog
            My Designs

            Comment

            • skyskooter
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Oct 2012
              • 414

              Don't like the sound of that. Two tonnes of lithium batteries on board.

              Comment

              • TomcatViP
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Nov 2011
                • 6122

                MH370: Lithium batteries complied with IATA regulations


                Given that Flight 730 was able to fly for six or more hours without any communication from the crew, investigators have to consider what event could have incapacitated the pilots and passengers and yet left the 777’s essential systems working perfectly. The batteries in the cargo hold could be the cause if they overheated.

                There is a debate among experts about how to classify and define the effects of a lithium-ion battery meltdown. In the case of the 787, Boeing argued that there was neither fire nor smoke. Ettel explains that in what is called a “thermal runaway” the batteries give off toxic fumes including arsenic, which are not necessarily detected by normal smoke alarms and can be lethal if not vented.
                Sources:

                http://www.thesundaily.my/

                The DailyBeast
                Last edited by TomcatViP; 3rd May 2014, 00:15.

                Comment

                • TomcatViP
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Nov 2011
                  • 6122

                  Ok I had a quick look at the specification of the batteries and here are my remarks:



                  If we consider that the venting system is only driven by the temperature differential, then the cooling valve open and close on a specif amount of time.

                  For example, if DeltaT=A, the orifice will open a certain amount of time t depending on the surface of the venting hole.
                  But if the outside pressure is decreased quickly (the thermal barrier of the packaging material might have played its part here also) and far bellow the design level, then as the time t is kept at its initial value, instead of discharging at a certain amount of flux (depending of the initial design ), the discharged flow is accelerated by the lower outside pressure with a speed V greater than the design value.
                  This tends to augment the temperature of the heated flows passing trough the opercule (T=P/rho ).
                  The heated flow will increase the inner batteries temperature, in turn augmenting the time the batteries valve will stay open.

                  We then have a cascading event that will end only either with a full gas discharge of the batteries, or by a spontaneous inflammation (lithium/carbon/plastics zipping point).


                  What we may conclude is that the crew and passengers might have been incapacitated by the toxic gazes (arsenic) or had to face a rapidly growing fire in the cargo bay with heavy smokes (plastics and carbon) and high temperature (lithium). This means that part of hull might have been very quickly breached (aluminium melting) with a large aerodynamics load impacting the trim of the airplane. We may suppose that the first reaction of the crew will have been to focus on manning the airplane and to shut all electrical sources or even climb to extinguish the fire as it was proposed earlier, but this,again, is only wild assumptions.

                  If I am right (that means that there is no pressure driven variable in the soft regulating the batteries) , what is urgently needed to prevent that scenario of events to happen again and be retrofitted at low cost, is either to add a pressure regulator with a pressure sensing device (an accelerometer dug in the outside skin for example) or to build a cheap sealed flight box with a regulating valve where to mandatory put electronics equipment for air shipping.


                  Edit:
                  For a better understanding, have a look here (source http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/)
                  Last edited by TomcatViP; 4th May 2014, 04:57.

                  Comment

                  • KKM57P
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Mar 2006
                    • 668

                    But where cotain an LIon accu arsenic? The contain LiCO2 and a water free electrolyte or a polymere (the PO in LIPO). A burnig LiOn or LIPO produce a huge amount of white fume. Then 2t LIon accus must be storaged in a special container. LiOn or LIPOs transported with storage voltage equal to 20% up to 40% energy content. For a simple reason, new LIons contain an inhibitor. This inhibitor make LIon storable over long time and full load storage would harm the accus anyway. The killer is the electrolyte or polymere. LiPF6, Polyvinylidenfluorid (PVDF) or Polyvinylidenfluorid-Hexafluorpropen (PVDF-HFP),Li3PO4N Lithiumphosphatnitrid.
                    The all produce HF during the combustion process and the endproduct with atmospheric humidity is then fluoric acid. But HF produce an eye-stinging smell.
                    Last edited by KKM57P; 7th May 2014, 13:51.
                    What may sound like a fairy tale today may be tomorrow's reality.

                    Comment

                    • TomcatViP
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Nov 2011
                      • 6122

                      Originally posted by KKM57P View Post
                      But where cotain an LIon accu arsenic? The contain LiCO2 and a water free electrolyte or a polymere (the PO in LIPO). A burnig LiOn or LIPO produce a huge amount of white fume. Then 2t LIon accus must be storaged in a special container. LiOn or LIPOs transported with storage voltage equal to 20% up to 40% energy content. For a simple reason, new LIons contain an inhibitor. This inhibitor make LIon storable over long time and full load storage would harm the accus anyway. The killer is the electrolyte or polymere. LiPF6, Polyvinylidenfluorid (PVDF) or Polyvinylidenfluorid-Hexafluorpropen (PVDF-HFP),Li3PO4N Lithiumphosphatnitrid.
                      The all produce HF during the combustion process and the endproduct with atmospheric humidity is then fluoric acid. But HF produce an eye-stinging smell.
                      Hi KKM57P,

                      I have to say that I didnt take a look at the chemical formulas. I did trust what was said (wrongly) on the dailyBeast (see my post 468)

                      Ettel explains that in what is called a “thermal runaway” the batteries give off toxic fumes including arsenic, which are not necessarily detected by normal smoke alarms and can be lethal if not vented.
                      So I went on Wiki and dug out this concerning the effect of Hydrofluoric acids

                      Because of the ability of hydrofluoric acid to penetrate tissue, poisoning can occur readily through exposure of skin or eyes, or when inhaled or swallowed. Symptoms of exposure to hydrofluoric acid may not be immediately evident. HF interferes with nerve function, meaning that burns may not initially be painful. Accidental exposures can go unnoticed, delaying treatment and increasing the extent and seriousness of the injury.[8]
                      Once absorbed into blood through the skin, it reacts with blood calcium and may cause cardiac arrest. Burns with areas larger than 160 cm2 (25 square inches) have the potential to cause serious systemic toxicity from interference with blood and tissue calcium levels.

                      Not forcely related but I noticed that also:

                      Hydrofluorocarbons in automatic fire suppression systems can release hydrogen fluoride at high temperatures, and this has led to deaths from acute respiratory failure in military personnel when a rocket-propelled grenade hit the fire suppression system in their vehicle
                      Last edited by TomcatViP; 8th May 2014, 05:09.

                      Comment

                      • topspeed
                        Get on uppah !
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 2660

                        Originally posted by skyskooter View Post
                        Don't like the sound of that. Two tonnes of lithium batteries on board.
                        I tought the same when I heard this news. I wonder if they can blow up with big explosion since no signal of fire was sent ?
                        If it looks good, it will fly good !
                        -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


                        http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

                        Comment

                        • TomcatViP
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Nov 2011
                          • 6122

                          I put that here. I think it's interesting. Even only if drawing a context line:

                          Philip Wood, Diego Garcia Update: Girlfriend Says She Got Death Threat After Malaysia Airlines Plane Disappeared

                          Comment

                          • TomcatViP
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Nov 2011
                            • 6122

                            The ATSB : Air routes are preprogrammed into flight computers and can be navigated without human intervention, raising the possibility that none of the crew were conscious when the plane crashed

                            air (only) route that passes down through the southeastern Indian Ocean, route M641, which travels from Cocos Island to Perth through four way points.

                            Flight 370's final digital handshake with the satellite didn't coincide with previous regular hourly transmissions. That is likely due to its electrical systems resetting when the plane ran out of fuel, the ATSB summary said, confirming earlier reports in The Wall Street Journal.

                            Malaysian government releases satellite data


                            sources:
                            The wall street Journal

                            The daily News
                            Last edited by TomcatViP; 27th May 2014, 05:01.

                            Comment

                            • Bmused55
                              Aaahh Emu!
                              • Oct 2003
                              • 11136

                              I don't think this bird will ever be found. She's likely in a trench at the bottom of the Indian ocean. Some very, very deep places there. I read somewhere the deepest is over 25,000 feet.

                              I think we just need to get comfortable with the idea that this will likely go unsolved. It'll probably be one of those "Great Mysteries" that will have documentaries filmed about it for decades to come, much like the Titanic before she was found.
                              Last edited by Bmused55; 27th May 2014, 09:03.
                              Bmused55

                              Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below and smite thee.

                              My Blog
                              My Designs

                              Comment

                              • Harper
                                Rank 3 Registered User
                                • May 2014
                                • 10

                                I have to agree with Bmused I don't think the plane is ever going to be found. There have been some many reports and leads that have lead to nothing. In all honesty I don't think they have any idea where it might be and may never know. It probably is at the bottom of the Indian Ocean 1000's of feet down.

                                Comment

                                • KKM57P
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Mar 2006
                                  • 668

                                  http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/n...-a-972036.html
                                  What may sound like a fairy tale today may be tomorrow's reality.

                                  Comment

                                  • TomcatViP
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Nov 2011
                                    • 6122

                                    Sea bed Map of Crash zone

                                    Click image for larger version

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                                    Released MH370 Inmarsat data


                                    Sources:
                                    Der Spiegel
                                    Department of Civil Aviation Malaysia
                                    The Australian gov

                                    Comment

                                    • Flying-A
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Oct 2007
                                      • 461

                                      Setback -- pings no longer thought to be related to MH370:

                                      http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/28/world/...6pLid%3D481624

                                      Comment

                                      • Confucius says
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Apr 2011
                                        • 231

                                        Originally posted by Bmused55 View Post
                                        I don't think this bird will ever be found. She's likely in a trench at the bottom of the Indian ocean. Some very, very deep places there. I read somewhere the deepest is over 25,000 feet.

                                        I think we just need to get comfortable with the idea that this will likely go unsolved. It'll probably be one of those "Great Mysteries" that will have documentaries filmed about it for decades to come, much like the Titanic before she was found.
                                        Assuming a water landing/crash, some parts will be at the bottom and some parts will be floating. Every day that passes without a single floating debris being found adds to the confusion as to what happened...

                                        Comment

                                        • charliehunt
                                          Nearly there!
                                          • Oct 2012
                                          • 11459

                                          With that latest piece of news from Canberra what next?
                                          Charlie

                                          Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

                                          Comment

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