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  • charliehunt
    Nearly there!
    • Oct 2012
    • 11459

    That's true but different satellites have different criteria and if the items are anonymous in that they have no markings then it would be quite rash to make claims for their provenance without being 100% certain. Particularly in the atmosphere of speculation and distrust which hangs over the whole sorry affair.
    Charlie

    Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

    Comment

    • John Green
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Mar 2011
      • 6643

      Re 331

      I'll give it another shot to see if there is someone on the Forum who has an answer.

      Assuming terrestrial coverage is sparse but, the a/c is satellite enabled, then presumably there will be many passengers of the 239 on board who would be troubled enough at having exceeded their known flight time and with relatives waiting for them at their destination, would have been motivated to call whoever is waiting for them, from their cell (mobile) phones.

      For example, if your flight time is three hours and you've just flown six, that would be enough to at least raise an eyebrow and for some of the more actively suspicious passengers to be motivated to ask a question or three. If they couldn't get satisfactory answers from the cabin crew, then someone is just a phone call away.

      Or, is this not so?

      If attemps were made to use cell phones then this will (should be) a matter of record. Have checks been made with the Asian equivalent of Vodafone or Orange or someone.

      Comment

      • Bmused55
        Aaahh Emu!
        • Oct 2003
        • 11136

        It all depends on network coverage and the range of the coverage.

        For instance, I cannot get a signal on an over night ferry from Newcastle to Amsterdam which is only travelling about 30 miles out at see from the UK mainland.

        On 9/11, the passengers and crew mostly used the on board Verizon air phones. These are hooked up to the aircraft's antennae in a way I am not to familiar with.
        Though, I do think that one or two managed to call the ground via their mobile phones. But those flights were over land, probably in areas with very good cell network coverage.

        Once over the water, forget it. By the time the passengers would have noticed anything was wrong, their plane would have been far from land.

        There is talk of the first or business class cabin having satellite phones on the incident aircraft. Why no one from those cabins used those phones is unknown. Perhaps that system can be turned off in the ****-pit?

        Who knows.

        What is fairly reasonable to assume however is that the passengers probably didn't realise anything was wrong until they were hours from land.
        Bmused55

        Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below and smite thee.

        My Blog
        My Designs

        Comment

        • John Green
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Mar 2011
          • 6643

          Re 344

          Thanks for the info. Every little helps understanding.

          Perhaps the Asian cell phone companies will permit access to the records covering the period in question. Does anyone know if this has been done?

          Comment

          • Peter Garner
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Dec 2007
            • 404

            Floating objects remain unidentified:

            http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26748291

            Comment

            • pandora
              Registered User
              • Mar 2014
              • 2

              Hi, I have a bunch of questions and I am looking for authoritative answers.

              Were the recommended modifications after the Egypt Air 777 cockpit fire in 2011 compulsory worldwide?

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              Did Malaysia Airlines carry out these modifications?

              What type of fire extinguishers are available inside the 777 cockpit that could put out an oxygen fed fire? Inert, chemical or foam?

              Would it be fair to assume that if the automated fire fighting systems failed to put out the oxygen fed fire on the Egypt Air 777, then they would also fail to put out an oxygen fed fire on the Malaysian aircraft?

              If the cockpit was holed as in the Egypt Air fire, could the cockpit de-pressure while the passenger compartment remains pressured if the cockpit door is closed?

              If the cockpit of the Egypt Air 777 looked like this after the fire, with airport fire fighting crews in attendance on the ground, would the damage be greater if the fire occurred in flight?

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              Would the most effective way of putting out such a fire be to gain altitude rapidly?

              If the oxygen system is part of the fire, what alternative breathing apparatus is available to the pilots? Do they have re-breather kits or normal bottled air available?

              Does the Flight Management System or autopilot have a default altitude setting, if the aircraft is hurriedly put onto autopilot by a desperate pilot in a burning or completely de-pressured cockpit?

              Do the turning points of flight MH370 correspond to normal waypoints that might have been left programmed into the autopilot from previous flights?

              Is the cockpit door strong enough to stay intact with a pressurised passenger cabin and a de-pressured cockpit?

              What is the likelihood of surviving an oxygen fed fire like the Egypt Air fire, if the fire occurred in flight?

              Are the electronics of the FMS or autopilot system located away from the cockpit, such that the systems can keep the aircraft in the air if the cockpit is destroyed?

              Does the cockpit door open inwards or outwards? Would passengers or cabin crew be able to force their way into the cockpit if the cockpit was de-pressured or on fire? If so, would it wise to do so?

              Comment

              • Fournier Boy
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Mar 2007
                • 1041

                All the boeings I worked on had a small blow out section of the cockpit door to equalise pressure, it's standard on the airbus too. It would not be possible for the cockpit to depressurise on it's on.

                Comment

                • Newforest
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Apr 2005
                  • 8887

                  The search has moved 1100 kilometers to the north of the original areas today. This is due to a recalculation of the aircraft's presumed speed and will allow the search aircraft an extra two hours on station due to being closer to land.
                  http://www.flightmemory.com/ I have been round the world 11.83 times!

                  Comment

                  • charliehunt
                    Nearly there!
                    • Oct 2012
                    • 11459

                    As someone commented the other day - it is like looking for a needle in a haystack but they haven't found the haystack yet.
                    Charlie

                    Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

                    Comment

                    • bms44
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Mar 2004
                      • 341

                      Missing Malaysian Airlines B777

                      I have read this forum since the desperate saga was started, many of the comments have been authoritative and beyond mere speculation, others have been just that, speculation and guesswork, but it would appear that the debris field spotted by the French satellite would sadly appear to be of the missing airliner. It will not be known until a vessel or vessels reach that area, when positive identification can be made. Sadly there is, I should speculate, a possibility of casualties on the surface amongst the wreckage. In view of the work done in the past on finding the 'Titanic' and 'Bismarck' , albeit in comparatively 'shallow' waters, unlike the vast depth of one of the planet's deepest oceans, surely it is not beyond possibilty to further narrow the search area, given the duration of the flight,the possible 'end' defined by a circle of probability,and by an analysis of the weather conditions and current movements indicate how far the debris field would have drifted from the impact area at the time of the 'crash'? All the worlds oceans have more than their share of flotsam and jetsam but the recent amount plotted would seem rather more ominous, and given the limited battery life of the FDR power supply it would appear vital to recover it as soon as feasible : how that is done, I leave to the experts in that field, but surely technical advances in the area of search and recovery must give some slight hope for the location of the wreckage, which it must needs be, now. RIP all the lost souls, and comfort to their families and friends : we must never overlook or minimise the true tragedy of this event. Whether it will ever be solved, your guess is as good as mine.

                      Comment

                      • Newforest
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Apr 2005
                        • 8887

                        " but it would appear that the debris field spotted by the French satellite would sadly appear to be of the missing airliner. It will not be known until a vessel or vessels reach that area, when positive identification can be made. "

                        But I think that this area of 'debris' is not in the same area that they have now re-located to is it?
                        http://www.flightmemory.com/ I have been round the world 11.83 times!

                        Comment

                        • Cking
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Oct 2004
                          • 1000

                          A fire in the forward part of the aircraft was my initial thought. As soon as it's strange movements became known I discounted that idea. Burning aircraft come down quick. They may change course erratically whilst they are doing it but the still come down quick.
                          The cockpit door, since 9-11 is un break downable. (There is a story about how I know that. I'll tell you down the pub!)

                          Rgds Cking

                          Comment

                          • hawkdriver05
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Mar 2005
                            • 1372

                            So they have found another "debris field".......,,.how many does that make now?

                            Comment

                            • pandora
                              Registered User
                              • Mar 2014
                              • 2

                              Originally posted by Fournier Boy View Post
                              All the boeings I worked on had a small blow out section of the cockpit door to equalise pressure, it's standard on the airbus too. It would not be possible for the cockpit to depressurise on it's on.
                              How big is the blow out section? Could it blocked by cushions, meal trays, hand luggage, cabin staff, etc?

                              Originally posted by Cking View Post
                              ... Burning aircraft come down quick. They may change course erratically whilst they are doing it but the still come down quick. ...
                              Yes ... if the fire is not extinguished. The question remains. What fire extinguishers are available in the cockpit? Would they be effective against an oxygen fed fire? Would de-pressurisation at high altitude extinguish the fire? Would the persons on board survive de-pressurisation sufficient to extinguish a fire?

                              Originally posted by Cking View Post
                              .... The cockpit door, since 9-11 is un break downable. ...
                              OK, that seems reasonable. Would cabin staff with the required code be able to open the door, or does the door also require permission from the pilots inside the cockpit before it will open?


                              Thanks those answers. Most helpful and appreciated. These questions remain unanswered:

                              Were the recommended modifications after the Egypt Air 777 cockpit fire in 2011 mandatory worldwide?

                              Did Malaysia Airlines carry out these modifications?

                              If the oxygen system is part of the fire, what alternative breathing apparatus is available to the pilots? Do they have re-breather kits or normal bottled air available?

                              Does the Flight Management System or autopilot have a default altitude setting, if the aircraft is hurriedly put onto autopilot by a desperate pilot in a burning or completely de-pressured cockpit?

                              Do the turning points of flight MH370 correspond to normal waypoints that might have been left programmed into the autopilot from previous flights?

                              What is the likelihood of surviving an oxygen fed fire like the Egypt Air fire, if the fire occurred in flight?

                              Are the electronics of the FMS or autopilot system located away from the cockpit, such that the systems can keep the aircraft in the air if the cockpit is destroyed?

                              Comment

                              • TomcatViP
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • Nov 2011
                                • 6109

                                If you are thinking at that:


                                When Boeing fixed the Ox house clamp, they might have not solve the root of the problem (surge in elec power from the battery -> heating -> gazes -> condensation -> corrosion -> integrity of fuel tank (or else)).


                                Regarding the scenario of catastrophic cockpit damages + pilots killed:
                                - Plane flew for hours with back crew and passenger fighting smoke and flames
                                - Flame propagated trough over head structure (Egypt Air 667) or bellow passenger deck (fuel line)
                                - Propagation of flames was delayed by the blowing up of front entry door (Egypt Air 667 + jet-way found at sea)
                                - Crew were unable to locate transponder 2 (inexperienced or unaware) or were unable to do it due to fire&smoke
                                - Flame could not be repelled anymore
                                - Panic ensued -> aft emergency door opened
                                - Some passenger jumping out to escape an horrific death (hence cell-phones)
                                - Fire intensity exacerbated
                                - Catastrophic explosion (or destruction ordered)

                                I hope nobody linked to families will read the above. If so, this is only conjectural and have nearly no basis of truth.
                                See page 5/4 and subsequent. This has been discussed alrdy.

                                To make it short, there is the eq. bay bellow and aft of the cokpit with two high press bottle (green on picture), two low pressure bottle near the copilot wall and portable bottle available at pilot hand reach. The main system battery is in the eq. bay and the APU one is in the aft section bellow deck, near the cargo right aft door (which some picture might have shown at see near the last recorded position). Near the aft cargo door there is also some O2 bottle for the crew.

                                However there is no frwd trim tank as I suggested. So fire if electrical is only with Ox or Battery.

                                Suggestion for the cause of fire in front section have been turning so far around:
                                - we don't know (most probability)
                                - reverse current flow and diode crack-up
                                - landing wheel fire or blowing-up (there is some case similar)
                                - static surge (in a pump ... but there is no frwd tank )


                                Now you are briefed as much as we are


                                I think that in page 3 or 2 I posted a sketch of main flammable components of the 777 used to train fire intervention team at airport.

                                ~S!
                                Last edited by TomcatViP; 29th March 2014, 01:59.

                                Comment

                                • charliehunt
                                  Nearly there!
                                  • Oct 2012
                                  • 11459

                                  The Malaysian transport minister says survivors might still be found. Is he just behaving like an irresponsible idiot or is he privy to information not yet n the public domain?
                                  Charlie

                                  Keep smiling - it's never as bad as you think!!

                                  Comment

                                  • 27vet
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Nov 2009
                                    • 2698

                                    This is the typical emergency equipment found in a B777 cockpit.
                                    Crew oxygen (100% under pressure fed from a cylinder on the lower deck), full face, incorporates smoke goggles
                                    Smoke hood and portable oxygen
                                    Halon Fire extinguisher
                                    Crash Axe
                                    Fireproof gloves
                                    Lifejackets
                                    Flashlight

                                    Click image for larger version

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                                    sigpicHindsight is what you see from the tailgunner's position...

                                    Comment

                                    • Cking
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Oct 2004
                                      • 1000

                                      Originally posted by pandora View Post
                                      How big is the blow out section? Could it blocked by cushions, meal trays, hand luggage, cabin staff, etc?
                                      I can't recall the exact size but they are protected by grills so it would be difficult to accidentally block them. Don't forget there are other openings I the flight deck for the rudder pedals, control column, throttles etc to pass through. The flight deck floor and rear bulkheads are not pressure tight, blow out panels are fitted just in case.


                                      Originally posted by pandora View Post
                                      OK, that seems reasonable. Would cabin staff with the required code be able to open the door, or does the door also require permission from the pilots inside the cockpit before it will open?
                                      I do not think that a public forum is the right place to discuss this.


                                      Originally posted by pandora View Post
                                      Were the recommended modifications after the Egypt Air 777 cockpit fire in 2011 mandatory worldwide?
                                      Yes.

                                      Originally posted by pandora View Post
                                      Did Malaysia Airlines carry out these modifications?
                                      Don't know but as they were mandatory and Malaysian are very hot on their maintenance I have no reason to doubt it.


                                      Originally posted by pandora View Post
                                      Does the Flight Management System or autopilot have a default altitude setting, if the aircraft is hurriedly put onto autopilot by a desperate pilot in a burning or completely de-pressured cockpit?
                                      No. The chances are IF there was a serious fire at some point the autopilot would drop out anyway

                                      Originally posted by pandora View Post
                                      Do the turning points of flight MH370 correspond to normal waypoints that might have been left programmed into the autopilot from previous flights?
                                      Don't know, that's a "pilotie" type question

                                      Originally posted by pandora View Post
                                      What is the likelihood of surviving an oxygen fed fire like the Egypt Air fire, if the fire occurred in flight?
                                      The crew would have noticed the fire and would have fought it earlier. If they did not put it out the breach of the pressure hull would have caused an explosive de compression whether that would have put it out is open to question. If it didn't and the fire had carried on I suspect that the aircraft would have crashed.

                                      Originally posted by pandora View Post
                                      Are the electronics of the FMS or autopilot system located away from the cockpit, such that the systems can keep the aircraft in the air if the cockpit is destroyed?
                                      There are components of each system mounted in the flight deck and in the forward lower avionics bay. All the bits must work for the system to work. If the flight deck is destroyed, you crash.

                                      Rgds Cking
                                      Last edited by Cking; 29th March 2014, 13:17.

                                      Comment

                                      • Cking
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Oct 2004
                                        • 1000

                                        One other thing. I have never, ever heard of a nose wheel fire. There is no detection system for it on any aircraft I have worked on either.

                                        Rgds Cking

                                        Comment

                                        • TomcatViP
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Nov 2011
                                          • 6109

                                          What do you mean? Not plausible or the other way ? It has been suggested here that a DC9 had a similar story.


                                          Regarding the Hijacking scenario, I had in mind the PaperFree program

                                          (reminder)

                                          On a security basis it can been seen as a breach (especially if pads are not lockup after flight). There is also the concomitant facts that the Pilot was heavily committed to the web community.
                                          Last edited by Deano; 5th April 2014, 22:22. Reason: COC RULE 14

                                          Comment

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