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  • Alpha Bravo
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Mar 2012
    • 627

    Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
    B52 were trained to fly nap-of the earth flight (500 - 1000ft).
    Even KC135 did train for that (Fr FAS).

    If you are flying slowly (to enhance fuel consumption) it might be feasible. Don't forget that we have a top of the notch flyer supposedly behind the Joke (if he had to do that for whatever reason).
    That's true, although military aircraft like the B-52 have specific equipment that enables them to fly so low like FLIR, NGV and terrain following radar, which are absent on airliners. Besides, the aircraft was flying at night, it would take one heck of a pilot to attempt nap of the earth flight without those aids.

    Originally posted by TomcatViP View Post
    Regarding the destination, I wonder why no-one has so far advanced Somalia. We are discussing Piracy here. They (at least the pirate that have settled themselves there) do not own the exclusivity of that activity, but still...
    I was wondering about that myself, would the aircraft have enough fuel to get to Somalia? Besides, if it was a case of Somali piracy, wouldn't they have demanded a ransom by now? After all, it seems money is all they ever seem to be interested in.

    Comment

    • RN Phantom
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Dec 2010
      • 88

      Originally posted by Alpha Bravo View Post
      That's true, although military aircraft like the B-52 have specific equipment that enables them to fly so low like FLIR, NGV and terrain following radar, which are absent on airliners. Besides, the aircraft was flying at night, it would take one heck of a pilot to attempt nap of the earth flight without those aids.
      Also low level flying is very hard on airframes, military aircraft are designed to cope with the stresses generated in ways that commercial aircraft aren't. It's just possible that if MH370 tried this it could have suffered a fatigue failure resulting in a crash.

      I was wondering about that myself, would the aircraft have enough fuel to get to Somalia? Besides, if it was a case of Somali piracy, wouldn't they have demanded a ransom by now? After all, it seems money is all they ever seem to be interested in.
      True but I've seen it suggested on another forum that maybe there has been such a demand but the hijackers have demanded an information blackout, that is what happens in most kidnap cases. Its unlikely but it's just possible.

      Comment

      • Deano
        Moderator
        • Aug 2003
        • 3098

        Originally posted by Newforest View Post
        It is an electrical item which may malfunction, possibly causing a fire, therefore the need to isolate it in an emergency (or a hijack).
        This is actually not the reason the transponder can be switched off. Dependent on aircraft type, some transponders can be switched off and some can only be put into standby mode. The reason you can switch it off or put it into stby mode is to isolate the actual transponder code for two reasons. Namely 1) to prevent squawk changes being displayed to the controller when being asked to change the code and 2) to stop radar clutter when on the ground at alot of airports. Most major airports will ask you to squawk "Charlie" on pushback, but you most definitely do not want to be squawking whilst shut down on stand on a turn around whilst the code you are using is from a previous flight. Some aircraft types have a stand alone transponder and others have it built in to the radio system.
        http://www.findmadeleine.com

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        • TomcatViP
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Nov 2011
          • 6122

          Originally posted by RN Phantom View Post
          Also low level flying is very hard on airframes, military aircraft are designed to cope with the stresses generated in ways that commercial aircraft aren't. It's just possible that if MH370 tried this it could have suffered a fatigue failure resulting in a crash.



          True but I've seen it suggested on another forum that maybe there has been such a demand but the hijackers have demanded an information blackout, that is what happens in most kidnap cases. Its unlikely but it's just possible.
          Low level is hard on airframe if you are doing that regularly. I guess that Boeing's engineers are not those of Microflop and have beefed their wings enough that you can fly a suitable amount of km low in a total security

          Moreover, at sea, 500ft in IFR is pretty much feasible especially if your reduce speed.

          They might have searched a spot on the map where they knew there was no radio detection, check their 6 (hence the zigzagging) and dive low.

          A radar detector might be not that hard to do at home (I mean a rugged one able to see if the aircraft is pinged). Then a ground crew might have been able to plug it during the removing of the baggage of the passengers that didn't check-up.
          Last edited by TomcatViP; 18th March 2014, 01:56.

          Comment

          • atr42
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Apr 2007
            • 340

            Just a few technical questions if someone wouldn't mind.
            Is ADS-B linked to the transponder? How has ADS been disabled otherwise?
            What range does the ELT beacon have above and below water?
            Could the ELT beacon be of the type fitted to the B787 and been disconnected prior to flight because of the fire risk or is it a no go MEL item?
            Has any aircraft been known to land on water and not leave a debris trail?

            Comment

            • TomcatViP
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Nov 2011
              • 6122

              Originally posted by atr42 View Post
              Has any aircraft been known to land on water and not leave a debris trail?
              A320 on the Hudson river lately.

              here is a video depicting teh ditching of a big (fragile) airplane:

              How to ditch a B24

              Comment

              • Kiwiguy
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Feb 2014
                • 29

                I understand Malaysian Airlines was too tight **** to pay for satellite bandwidth for ACARS, except during take off and approach in compliance with its engine leasing agreement with Rolls Royce, thus pilots were routinely expected to switch off ACARS after departure. The Malaysian authorities would have known this before they tried to insinuate to the media that this was something sinister.

                Similar with transponders that except for the new style push button transponders it is normal practice after handing off from one airspace and before getting a new transponder code to switch to standby until a new code is inputted.

                Comment

                • Kiwiguy
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Feb 2014
                  • 29

                  Perfectly logical alternative explanation...

                  If MH370 had a faulty generator or one not producing the expected voltage pilots may have introduced another generator, even APU running in parallel with the faulty unit. If the voltage drop between generators was too high the current would want to reverse flow to the faulty unit only prevented by a diode.

                  Had the voltage difference become too great, or the diode preventing this become too overheated there would have been an explosion and fire in the avionics bay beneath and behind the cockpit. Had the explosion also ruptured the oxygen lines feeding pilots that would have fed a fire able to burn a hole in the aircraft skin in a matter of minutes.

                  A reverse DC current surge could have opened fuel valves on the engines providing full thrust to climb the aircraft on it's own to 45,000ft where the ruptured pressure hull would sooner or later claimed the lives of all aboard.

                  If you don't think this possible please consider 2011 when Egyptair flight 667 had a problem just prior to push back.







                  These poor pilots, God rest their souls are just scape goats for a corrupt Government administration trying to blame political opponents.

                  Comment

                  • TomcatViP
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Nov 2011
                    • 6122

                    I have a problem with your reverse current hypothesis but definitively an electric issue leading to a rapid growing fire in the equipment bay is what seems the most plausible in the accident scenario.

                    If their was a power surge due to a dysfunctional generator, won't it be more plausible that there was a static build-up on the pump that (I guess) is activated once the plane is flying level at its cruise alt to lesser the trim drag (fill the frwd tank to decrease pitch trim for an aircraft more aft centered to reduce pitch force at TO and climb)?

                    SO, surge, static build-up, power on -> fire ->Ox-> fuselage breach -> one or more pilot incapacitated -> tank not full (pump inoperative) -> TRIM force is on pitch-up -> plane climb -> reach max alt -> horn (surviving pilot wake up) or safe system take-over or max alt with pitch setting ...
                    Last edited by TomcatViP; 18th March 2014, 02:42.

                    Comment

                    • Kiwiguy
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Feb 2014
                      • 29

                      Tomcat I am not an avionics expert. I did however trawl aviation engineering websites looking for likely causes and reconstructed my theory from what I have been reading. I don't know enough to discount or include static discharge. One thing however and that anything which increases voltage differential across a diode by 10-15 volts pushes the diode towards failure.

                      I don't believe pilots were conscious after the aircraft descended from 45,000ft

                      If you think about how RMAF could tell from primary radar returns that an aircraft was at 45,000ft they must have watched it climb until 500nm away from Butterworth. That is because with radar horizon near sea level if you can see a blip 500 nautical miles away it must be at that altitude.

                      This implies the Malaysian Authorities knew it was over Vietnamese airspace before turning back but fed a false story that it turned back before reaching Vietnam.

                      It reappeared east of Malaysia at 23,000ft at 2:40am (200nm dist) meandering about the sky into the northern straits of Malacca where it was last seen from Butterworth climbing at 29,500ft about 226nm away towards the Andaman Islands.

                      Comment

                      • J Boyle
                        With malice towards none
                        • Oct 2004
                        • 9808

                        I've seen on PPrune...and other discussions of the crash by non-aviation people...people asking if the plane could have hit the water and been swallowed whole, leaving no debris.

                        For those of you too young to remember, here's video of a RAF Nimrod hitting Lake Ontario in 1995. Don't view it if you're sensitive.

                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAcHCpaZpSk

                        So the short answer is...no, not even a strong modern jetliner can't withstand an impact like that.
                        There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

                        Comment

                        • Kiwiguy
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Feb 2014
                          • 29

                          Somebody on another website asked me about cell phones still ringing or something... To be honest i could not be bothered with conspiracy theory but I gave that question a reply which got me thinking.

                          If one had enough passenger cell phone numbers and access to cell phone transmission networks, one could perhaps plot the location of cell phone towers that might have been activated after it left radar coverage from Butterworth.

                          Indeed if there were clusters of cell phones known to be on the aircraft all activating cell towers at the same time then it would be a fair assumption the aircraft passed that way.

                          For example if the aircraft meandered north over Thailand or west over India and activated cell towers then that would narrow this huge search area. Worth a thought...

                          Comment

                          • Bmused55
                            Aaahh Emu!
                            • Oct 2003
                            • 11136

                            Originally posted by J Boyle View Post
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAcHCpaZpSk

                            So the short answer is...no, not even a strong modern jetliner can't withstand an impact like that.
                            There is a difference between an intended ditching and an unintended crash into water. The above video is of the latter.

                            The Hudson A320 excellently shows what happens when you make a controlled ditching in perfect conditions.
                            There was also a DC-9 that managed to ditch intact and stay afloat in stormy seas in the Caribbean. I forget the name of the airline and the date.
                            It actually turned submarine for a few short seconds upon initial contact with the water!

                            If the Malaysian 777 was forced to ditch, there is every chance it could have done so successfully. Weather was reportedly calm in most areas surrounding the mystery flight's supposed track.

                            But, as we have not heard from anyone, no ELT has been activated and there is no trace of the plane, I'm siding with the distinct possibility it is at the bottom of the Indian Ocean.


                            EDIT: When in a controlled ditching, even a Nimrod can survive long enough to allow evacuation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj802Ssh3So
                            Bmused55

                            Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below and smite thee.

                            My Blog
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                            Comment

                            • Newforest
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Apr 2005
                              • 8893

                              Manual overwriting of the flight computer?

                              AOL bring a new snippet of theory to the table.

                              http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014...6pLid%3D250620
                              http://www.flightmemory.com/ I have been round the world 11.83 times!

                              Comment

                              • J Boyle
                                With malice towards none
                                • Oct 2004
                                • 9808

                                Originally posted by Bmused55 View Post
                                There is a difference between an intended ditching and an unintended crash into water. The above video is of the latter.
                                I agree.
                                It was posted in response to any who might think that an uncontrolled or steep impact would have a happy outcome.
                                There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

                                Comment

                                • tenthije
                                  Harrie Spotter
                                  • Jan 2000
                                  • 5102

                                  Originally posted by Kiwiguy View Post
                                  Somebody on another website asked me about cell phones still ringing or something...
                                  A cell phone connection (not the most accurate term, but bear with me) does not mean that the cell phone is still active, or in one piece for that matter. You won't have confirmation of that until the other end answers the phone.

                                  While the connection is established the phone will make the familiar sound. Only when the network is sure the phone can not be found will the "connection" be terminated. That's also why you can hear briefly a tone when you try to call someone who has switched off his phone.
                                  Click here to view my photos at JetPhotos.net!
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                                  Comment

                                  • slipperysam
                                    mmmm.... donuts
                                    • May 2006
                                    • 784

                                    If what the media is reporting true.... then it just gets better and better!



                                    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/worl...319-hvk7i.html

                                    Bangkok: Thailand's military said on Tuesday that its radar detected a plane that may have been Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 just minutes after the jetliner's communications went down, and that it didn't share the information with Malaysia earlier because it wasn't specifically asked for it.

                                    A twisting flight path described on Tuesday by Thai air force spokesman Air Vice Marshal Montol Suchookorn took the plane to the Strait of Malacca, which is where Malaysian radar tracked Flight 370 early March 8. But Montol said the Thai military doesn't know whether it detected the same plane.

                                    Thailand's failure to quickly share possible information regarding the fate of the plane, and the 239 people aboard it, may not substantially change what Malaysian officials know, but it raises questions about the degree to which some countries are sharing their defence information, even in the name of an urgent and mind-bending aviation mystery.

                                    With only its own radar to go on, it took Malaysia a week to confirm that Flight 370 had entered the strait, an important detail that led it to change its search strategy.

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                                    When asked why it took so long to release the information, Montol said, "Because we did not pay any attention to it. The Royal Thai Air Force only looks after any threats against our country, so anything that did not look like a threat to us, we simply look at it without taking actions."

                                    He said the plane never entered Thai airspace and that Malaysia's initial request for information in the early days of the search was not specific.

                                    "When they asked again and there was new information and assumptions from (Malaysian) Prime Minister Najib Razak, we took a look at our information again," Montol said. "It didn't take long for us to figure out, although it did take some experts to find out about it."

                                    Flight 370 took off from Kuala Lumpur at 12.40am Malaysian time and its transponder, which allows air traffic controllers to identify and track the airplane, ceased communicating at 1.20am.

                                    Montol said that at 1.28am, Thai military radar "was able to detect a signal, which was not a normal signal, of a plane flying in the direction opposite from the MH370 plane," back toward Kuala Lumpur. The plane later turned right, toward Butterworth, a Malaysian city along the Strait of Malacca. The radar signal was infrequent and did not include any data such as the flight number.

                                    He said he didn't know exactly when Thai radar last detected the plane. Malaysian officials have said Flight 370 was last detected by their own military radar at 2.14am.

                                    The search area for the plane initially focused on the South China Sea, where ships and planes spent a week searching. Pings that a satellite detected from the plane hours after its communications went down have led authorities to concentrate instead on two vast arcs one into central Asia and the other into the Indian Ocean that together cover an expanse as big as Australia.

                                    Thai officials said radar equipment in southern Thailand detected the plane. Malaysian officials have said the plane might ultimately have passed through northern Thailand, but Thai Air Chief Marshal Prajin Juntong told reporters on Tuesday that the country's northern radar did not detect it.


                                    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/malaysia...#ixzz2wLe81cPS
                                    We are 100% SNAFU

                                    Comment

                                    • Kiwiguy
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Feb 2014
                                      • 29

                                      On day 12 of the search interesting information has emerged, most importantly that a "jumbo jet" painted red and white was sighted overflying the southern Maldives quite low about 6.15am local time. Shouldn't somebody be dropping sonar bouys west of the Maldives about now?

                                      Two other developments, Thailand finally coughed up the fact they watched an aircraft flying south over the Gulf of Thailand towards Kuala Lumpur which turned right (ie west) towards the Straits of Malacca.

                                      Then it also emerged five fisherman off the north east coast of Malaysia heard a very low flying jet in darkness swoop over them. No real indication of altitude but an impression of loud engines.

                                      Comment

                                      • Kiwiguy
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Feb 2014
                                        • 29

                                        Originally posted by slipperysam View Post
                                        If what the media is reporting true.... then it just gets better and better!



                                        http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/worl...319-hvk7i.html

                                        Bangkok: Thailand's military said on Tuesday that its radar detected a plane that may have been Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 just minutes after the jetliner's communications went down, and that it didn't share the information with Malaysia earlier because it wasn't specifically asked for it.

                                        A twisting flight path described on Tuesday by Thai air force spokesman Air Vice Marshal Montol Suchookorn took the plane to the Strait of Malacca, which is where Malaysian radar tracked Flight 370 early March 8. But Montol said the Thai military doesn't know whether it detected the same plane.

                                        Thailand's failure to quickly share possible information regarding the fate of the plane, and the 239 people aboard it, may not substantially change what Malaysian officials know, but it raises questions about the degree to which some countries are sharing their defence information, even in the name of an urgent and mind-bending aviation mystery.

                                        With only its own radar to go on, it took Malaysia a week to confirm that Flight 370 had entered the strait, an important detail that led it to change its search strategy.

                                        Advertisement

                                        When asked why it took so long to release the information, Montol said, "Because we did not pay any attention to it. The Royal Thai Air Force only looks after any threats against our country, so anything that did not look like a threat to us, we simply look at it without taking actions."

                                        He said the plane never entered Thai airspace and that Malaysia's initial request for information in the early days of the search was not specific.

                                        "When they asked again and there was new information and assumptions from (Malaysian) Prime Minister Najib Razak, we took a look at our information again," Montol said. "It didn't take long for us to figure out, although it did take some experts to find out about it."

                                        Flight 370 took off from Kuala Lumpur at 12.40am Malaysian time and its transponder, which allows air traffic controllers to identify and track the airplane, ceased communicating at 1.20am.

                                        Montol said that at 1.28am, Thai military radar "was able to detect a signal, which was not a normal signal, of a plane flying in the direction opposite from the MH370 plane," back toward Kuala Lumpur. The plane later turned right, toward Butterworth, a Malaysian city along the Strait of Malacca. The radar signal was infrequent and did not include any data such as the flight number.

                                        He said he didn't know exactly when Thai radar last detected the plane. Malaysian officials have said Flight 370 was last detected by their own military radar at 2.14am.

                                        The search area for the plane initially focused on the South China Sea, where ships and planes spent a week searching. Pings that a satellite detected from the plane hours after its communications went down have led authorities to concentrate instead on two vast arcs — one into central Asia and the other into the Indian Ocean — that together cover an expanse as big as Australia.

                                        Thai officials said radar equipment in southern Thailand detected the plane. Malaysian officials have said the plane might ultimately have passed through northern Thailand, but Thai Air Chief Marshal Prajin Juntong told reporters on Tuesday that the country's northern radar did not detect it.


                                        Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/malaysia...#ixzz2wLe81cPS
                                        Somebody really needs to construct a reliable timeline because malaysian newspapers until now have also mentioned that RMAF butterworth first detected the unidentified aircraft at 2:40am.

                                        Not a dig at you Slipperysam, but all this information is contradictory and unreliable.

                                        As first reported the aircraft was seen from Butterworth at 45,000ft then dropped to 23,000ft, though how you can assert this with primary radar is itself baffling. For primary radar returns to indicate an aircraft at 45,000ft it has to be seen on radar at a range of 500nm (ie above radar horizon).

                                        We were told it crossed Malaysia at 23,000ft then meandered around the northern straits and departed West climbing at 29,500ft. Now based on fishermen hearing it in the dark we are told it was just 5,000ft AGL?

                                        Comment

                                        • Confucius says
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Apr 2011
                                          • 231

                                          Another day, another theory; Plane sighted over Maldives, or is it debris identified in Malacca Strait...

                                          Speaking of which, if I had to pick one, it would be this guy's: Chris Goodfellow theory

                                          Whilst it doesn't account for everything in this mystery, it's pretty sensible. It also totally exonerates the pilots from nefarious actions, which the mainstream media seem to keen on invent, er, reporting.

                                          Comment

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