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By: - 13th February 2014 at 14:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Great photo, but looking at the gradient of the foreground, would suggest that the wing tip is farther from the ground than the photo would imply. Anyway, change of clothing jobbie!
By: - 16th February 2014 at 21:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I wonder if our resident FlyBe Dash 8 Pilot can comment?
By: - 19th February 2014 at 00:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes I can comment.
What a complete and utter load of nonsense. Runway 23R at Manchester sits in a little bit of a dip when viewed from where this photo was taken. The only thing you are witnessing in this photo is a standard, yes, standard, wing down crosswind landing technique. Yes the wing is slightly lower than normal but can you see the left main gear? No you can't. Why can't you? Because it is below ground level when viewed from where this photo was taken. The wing is nowhere near the ground and the plane is nowhere near disaster, and it isn't a 40 seat aircraft like how it's reported in other media sites. I am guessing it just missed a school full of primary school children as well. Seriously, the media really need to learn what google is. We won't let reality get in the way of a dramatic story though, will we :confused:
By: - 21st February 2014 at 09:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just as I thought :)
I didn't comment as I knew you would chime in with the common sense :)
By: - 21st February 2014 at 10:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Pic angles especially telephoto are so unrealistic.
I'm surprised they didn't mention the lamp post the wingtip has just missed or the group of them it's just flown through.
This happens all the time on crosswind 'crab' aproaches where the aircraft appears almost side on...in telephoto, but it's nothing like than in normal perpective.
A constant irritant all these 'dramatic' non events
By: - 21st February 2014 at 10:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes I can comment.................. I am guessing it just missed a school full of primary school children as well................
No, the captain of the aircraft heroically guided it away from the school :)
By: - 21st February 2014 at 10:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm not sure you would normally use the wing down technique all the way to touch down though.......
It be described as "normal" and a "non-event" but I would imagine a passenger would not necessarily agree with you. I'm not sure I do either.
By: - 21st February 2014 at 12:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well Derek as I fly the damn things I can assure you that you do actually use that technique all the way to touchdown. So if you feel you're more qualified to discount what I am saying then please share your wisdom with us.
By: - 21st February 2014 at 13:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Holding 15 deg bank to touchdown? Really? Note to self - avoid Dash 8s when it might be windy......
The few photos before in this sequence show the aircraft wings level so I suspect the wing has been lifted by a gust rather the pilot having much say in the bank angle. The wind at Manchester that day was blowing mostly down the runway within a few degrees of the runway heading so perhaps not much of crosswind component. It was very gusty though.
Anyway I bow to your clearly stated superior knowledge, and it's been a while since I got involved crosswind expansion flight trials.
Not sure there is any need to be quite so aggressive and condescending in your post though.
By: - 21st February 2014 at 13:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And your post was hardly full of fluffy white tails either, but that's ok for you to be completely dismissive towards me.
You clearly know about crosswind landings, based on that you will know that to fly wing down you will hold "aileron" as required to keep the aircraft on the centreline. If you're holding 15° of bank then you're holding 15° of bank. If the wind was down the runway then there would be no reason to fly wing down. I would rather suspect the wind in the picture is a pretty damn good crosswind, or a crosswind gust. I did say in my original post that you land with wing down but the picture did look like it is banking a little bit more than normal but it isn't unusual in the Q400 at all. Hell I've come in to land in Newquay on Runway 12 (I pick this out because it's particularly bad down there) with the wind from the South gusting 50 odd and the bank required to keep the centreline just before touchdown feels very unnatural. The Q400 isn't a jet, it's obviously a high wing turboprop, engine pod clearance is never an issue and the correct technique when landing in crosswinds is wing down and then touch the into wind main wheel down first. The Q400's maximum landing weight is only 28 tonnes (we are rarely anywhere near this) so we don't have the inertia that the heavier jets have to be able to kick it straight at the last minute without drifting off the centreline. Gusty conditions can drop the wing more than normal, if you get less gust it'll lift the wing. You make the best of a bad job, but whilst all the jets are going around because the EGPWS is shouting "windsheer" we just get on with it and land and the passengers can go along their merry way.
By: - 21st February 2014 at 19:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Flybe Dash Eights are a very common visitor at my local.
I've watched many landing in crosswind upto the limit.
This, allowing for the forshorting effect of telephone does not look out of the ordinary in those sorts of conditions.
Sometimes there is a little wobble as the flare starts but it's always well controlled and nothing like a still picture can appear to show.
In this case it was windy, he landed safely...so where's the issue?.
A captain of the type see's no issue. He knows what he's talking about simply because it's his job to know this.
If I was a passenger wainting to go aboard I would do so quite willingly. I've seen many such landings of many types, yet in all the years I have been watching since the early 1960's there has never been a passenger hurt at my local because of this and crosswinds are a frequent factor.
By: - 21st February 2014 at 19:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You're right. We should accept things at face value. There was obviously no danger here and everything worked out fine so that's OK.
I'll leave it there and keep my opinions to myself in future.
By: - 22nd February 2014 at 19:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You're right.I'll leave it there and keep my opinions to myself in future.
That's a first.
By: - 24th February 2014 at 10:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't think anyone should leave a conversation, we should all want to discuss topics because this is a discussion forum, so please reconsider, Derek.
Just going back to the winds that day in Manchester. The Q400 may appeared to have been coming in wings level because it actually was. Pilots have different techniques during crosswind landings; some like to fly cross controlled all the way to touchdown and some, including myself like to crab in all the way until about 30ft and then go wing down at that point. I was having a think about it whilst flying last night in only about 15kt crosswinds and that is basically what I do.
In most cases of the Q400 into wind main wheel touch first technique, the passengers don't bat an eyelid because when it's bad enough to have alot of bank on touchdown it normally means a pretty turbulent approach and they are normally only too pleased to be on the ground. You can tell because you can hear them when they get off saying "say thanks to the pilots". In all my years of flying I have never heard of someone complain because of the bank angle on touchdown.
The Q400 is a bit of an animal to handle, if you mishandle it then it can bite you really bad but one thing it does well is handle turbulence and crosswinds very, very well indeed; c'est la vie.
By: - 24th February 2014 at 10:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, the captain of the aircraft heroically guided it away from the school :)
Haha yes, very true, Alan, very true :very_drunk:
By: - 24th February 2014 at 21:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
From the perspective of a passenger who has experienced this, Deano's contributions have made fascinating reading. I can't think of anyone better than a pilot experienced in this type of aircraft to comment authoritatively on the subject.
Posts: 2,343
By: cloud_9 - 13th February 2014 at 11:36
Just thought I'd share the link and the photo (not mine I must say!) of a Flybe aircraft that was landing at Manchester during the windy weather yesterday...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]225419[/ATTACH]
Obviously the photo is taken from some distance away so I can't tell exactly how far off the ground the wing was to be able to say how close it was to touching the surface of the runway, but it certainly seems like the pilots did an excellent job given the challenging conditions.
Link to the source: http://metro.co.uk/2014/02/13/planes-wings-almost-clip-runway-during-gale-force-winds-4302545/