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  • Chili2001
    Registered User
    • Feb 2013
    • 10

    Boeing 757-200 technical advice

    All I would like to know is there such a thing called a "High speed bleed valve" on a Boeing 757-200 commercial aeroplane?*The reason I would like to know this is because I am trying to get a compensation claim granted to me for a delayed flight which is being refused on the grounds of an extraordinary issue with the above valve.*The thing is, that valve doesn't seem to exist on the 757. The closest I can find is a "High pressure bleed valve".*If it does exist, then how common would a fault relating to it be?*
  • Mr Creosote
    Better get a bucket...
    • Aug 2005
    • 1399

    #2
    Hi. You might do better asking your question on PPRune (link below) where there are a lot of professional plane drivers, engineers, etc. Best of luck with your claim.

    http://www.pprune.org/
    Terms & Conditions Apply.

    Comment

    • ThreeSpool
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Mar 2010
      • 956

      #3
      Your going to have to give a little more information than that.

      PRSOV comes to mind on the RB211.

      Comment

      • Cking
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Oct 2004
        • 1000

        #4
        The 757 has a high pressure bleed valve (or high stage bleed valve, call it what you will) fitted to each engine. it's job is to bleed off air from the compressor for the pneumatic system when the engine is at low power settings i.e. during taxi and during descent.
        It is a VERY reliable valve, in fact in the past 25 years that I have worked the 757 I have never heard of one failing! There is also no way of knowing when they are about to fail.
        I have changed them and they are not a ten minute job plus they need a high power engine run to test them.
        I have not got a 757 MEL to hand to say if dispatching an aircraft with one inoperative is allowed. I would ASSUME it is BUT you would probably be restricted to non ETOPS at a lower altitude and definitely no icing conditions forecast on the route.
        Due to my experience I would say the this IS an "extraordinary issue" and the airline made the right decision to ensure YOUR safety.

        Rgds Cking

        Comment

        • Cking
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Oct 2004
          • 1000

          #5
          I have just looked at the 757 MEL's for two different airlines 757's. As I said you can dispatch the aircraft with the high pressure bleed valve locked out BUT only in the closed position and the operating proceedures are very restrictive. The show stopper is no dispatch into known or forecast icing conditions. In Northan Europe this time of year that is all of the time.

          Rgds Cking

          Comment

          • Chili2001
            Registered User
            • Feb 2013
            • 10

            #6
            Thank you. If safety was an issue then that would be fine but the airline in question seem to be blanket banning compensation where it should be paid so I think I will let a court decide as they made up a valve that doesn't exist (or got the name of it wrong).
            I'm pretty sure they flew with it unrepaired as the plane was so hot on the way home everyone felt faint and were complaining. I take it this valve has something to to with the A/C? So instead of cancelling the flight after they failed to repair it it was more likely the crew ran out of hours and had to wait for a changeover. I'm waiting for the information regarding the flight from the CAA.
            Last edited by Chili2001; 24th February 2013, 17:27.

            Comment

            • 27vet
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Nov 2009
              • 2700

              #7
              cking is exactly right.

              Bleed valves take air from the engine compressor for pressurization, air conditioning and pneumatic systems such as wing and engine anti ice and hydraulic reservoir pressurization.

              Engine bleed air comes from either the high pressure (HP) or low pressure (LP) engine compressor sections. LP air is used during high power setting operations, HP air is used during descent and other low power setting operations.
              sigpicHindsight is what you see from the tailgunner's position...

              Comment

              • ThreeSpool
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Mar 2010
                • 956

                #8
                How about some more details about the flight? Route, Airline, Date?

                Comment

                • Chili2001
                  Registered User
                  • Feb 2013
                  • 10

                  #9
                  Originally posted by ThreeSpool View Post
                  How about some more details about the flight? Route, Airline, Date?

                  Hi, it was Thomas Cook flight number TCX1745 on 21st September 2012 from Antalya to Gatwick with the scheduled departure time of 21.10. This flight arrived 3 hours 45 minutes late at Gatwick.

                  Comment

                  • ThreeSpool
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Mar 2010
                    • 956

                    #10
                    nm
                    Last edited by ThreeSpool; 24th February 2013, 22:59.

                    Comment

                    • Bmused55
                      Aaahh Emu!
                      • Oct 2003
                      • 11136

                      #11
                      Under 4 hours of delay and you want compensation?
                      How could this possibly cause you any distress or hardship as to warrant compensation?
                      Seriously now, what do you expect?

                      Your entire argument seems hinged on a single word or misquoted line. No judge is going to grant compensation, especially if the airline produces a maintenance log and proves what went wrong with the plane, which they can and probably will if you insist on pursuing this case.

                      Let's put things into perspective here.
                      I was delayed over 8 hours getting out of Corfu after the plane that was supposed to operate our flight went tech somewhere up river in the schedule that day.
                      Apologies were given on site, we were sent to a local 4 star hotel for dinner until our replacement arrived. More apologies were given and updates were available every hour. Food was eaten, we were taken back to the airport, put on a replacement aircraft and arrived in Glasgow 8 hours 35 minutes later than planned.
                      I actually made the most of the unscheduled extension of my stay in Corfu and went to take scenic photos.

                      On another occasion, my flight to Newark (USA) was delayed. Consequently I arrived to late for the connecting flight to Ft. Lauderdale and onward to Nassau. I was rebooked on he next available flights, total delay just over 3 hours.

                      I did not go looking for a quick buck. I had had my holiday and got home safely, just with a delay. It is the getting home safely part that counts for me.

                      The airline gave you a reason for the delay. The person delivering you the reason was likely not of a technical background so probably misquoted what they were told. (Chinese whispers anyone?)
                      Bottom line is, safety comes first. Delays happen. It's a fact of life.
                      Don't want a delay getting home from a holiday? Don't fly.
                      Last edited by Bmused55; 26th February 2013, 14:07.
                      Bmused55

                      Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below and smite thee.

                      My Blog
                      My Designs

                      Comment

                      • Chili2001
                        Registered User
                        • Feb 2013
                        • 10

                        #12
                        Good for you if you enjoyed your delay.

                        I didn't enjoy sitting at a very hot, crowded, expensive and uncomfortable airport for over 7 hours with an ill crying pregnant girlfriend and the TC reps were next to useless.

                        4* hotel for dinner? Lucky you. We had a lukewarm chicken wrap that we believe gave us food poisioning the next day. They wouldn't even give us free bottled water. It was a can of coke or nothing!

                        My case does not hinge on a single misplaced word. I am entitled to compensation under the European law and I intend to get it. My holiday in general was awful and these holiday companies do not give a toss about you as soon as they have parted you with your money and it's time to readdress the balance.

                        If they had treated me as an individual instead of a statistic when I originally complained and even offered me a token amount of compensation I would be happy. But all I got was a standard template rejection letter.

                        It's not about making a fast buck and if everyone stood up to these airlines then it can only improve delay times and conditions in my opinion.

                        It's people like you who are happy to do nothing that makes me laugh. If you were happy being delayed then great, I'm pleased for you. But having a go at me for trying to claim for something that's well within my rights to do says to me that all those delays you encountered have left you with a little too much pent up anger and frustration!
                        Last edited by Deano; 27th February 2013, 09:42. Reason: COC RULE 14

                        Comment

                        • Cking
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Oct 2004
                          • 1000

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Chili2001 View Post
                          as they made up a valve that doesn't exist (or got the name of it wrong).
                          I don't think that the airline made up the valve, it was more likely that a member of the ground staff miss heard the aircrew and engineers and then passed that on to the staff. Remember the vast majority of airline staff have no technical knowledge.

                          Originally posted by Chili2001 View Post
                          I'm pretty sure they flew with it unrepaired
                          Tommy Cooks would have dispatched the aircraft in the correct manner. They have very high technical standards. I do not work for them but some of my friends do.

                          Originally posted by Chili2001 View Post
                          the plane was so hot on the way home
                          The high stage bleed valve would not have caused that.

                          Originally posted by Chili2001 View Post
                          I take it this valve has something to to with the A/C?
                          It supply's the air-conditioning during taxing and during descent, NOT during the cruise.

                          I did asked a two 757 guys at work today if they have ever had a High stage bleed valve fail on them. To a man none of them have. One had worked the 757 since the beginning, thirty years ago and the other guy had worked it for the past fifteen years. So, combining the collective experience of three guys gives us about seventy years experience of the type! So I would still say that this was an extraordinary issue.

                          Rgds Cking
                          Last edited by Cking; 26th February 2013, 21:36.

                          Comment

                          • Chili2001
                            Registered User
                            • Feb 2013
                            • 10

                            #14
                            You can say what you like mate. The European law says otherwise:

                            Technical issues cannot be described as 'extraordinary circumstances' under regulation 261/2004 as follows:

                            Article 5(3) of Regulation No 261/2004 must be interpreted as meaning that a technical problem in an aircraft which leads to the cancellation or delay of a flight is not covered by the concept of ‘extraordinary circumstances’ within the meaning of that provision, unless that problem stems from events which, by their nature or origin, are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control.

                            Please also see the court ruling of Wallentin-Hermann v Alitalia – Linee Aeree Italiane SpA (C549/07).
                            Last edited by Deano; 27th February 2013, 09:46. Reason: COC RULE 14

                            Comment

                            • Chili2001
                              Registered User
                              • Feb 2013
                              • 10

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Cking View Post
                              Tommy Cooks would have dispatched the aircraft in the correct manner. They have very high technical standards. Rgds Cking
                              But sadly very low customer service standards.

                              Tell that to the other 200 odd people almost fainting on the way home.

                              Comment

                              • Chili2001
                                Registered User
                                • Feb 2013
                                • 10

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Cking View Post
                                I don't think that the airline made up the valve
                                Never thought they did. I assumed it was a mistake but it came from the CEO's office so maybe they should check their facts first.
                                Last edited by Chili2001; 26th February 2013, 22:14.

                                Comment

                                • Cking
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Oct 2004
                                  • 1000

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Chili2001
                                  I have heard from several people on other technical forums that would disagree with you.
                                  Could you give me the link to these technical forums. I am interested.

                                  Rgds Cking

                                  Comment

                                  • Cking
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Oct 2004
                                    • 1000

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Chili2001 View Post
                                    But sadly very low customer service standards.

                                    Tell that to the other 200 odd people almost fainting on the way home.
                                    I cannot comment on the customer service only the engineering standards that are second to none.

                                    Rgds Cking

                                    Comment

                                    • Cking
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Oct 2004
                                      • 1000

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Chili2001 View Post
                                      Never thought they did. I assumed it was a mistake but it came from the CEO's office so maybe they should check their facts first.
                                      Good point, well made.

                                      Rgds Cking

                                      Comment

                                      • Chili2001
                                        Registered User
                                        • Feb 2013
                                        • 10

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Cking View Post
                                        Could you give me the link to these technical forums. I am interested.

                                        Rgds Cking
                                        I have looked again and I stand corrected. One of the members wrote this:

                                        Yes, the HP valve supplies the pneumatic system which includes aircraft pressurization, air conditioning, wing and engine cowl anti-icing, etc. Depending upon what was wrong, it could have affected aircraft operation in a couple of ways. It may have limited the aircraft to operating at or below 35,000 ft. alt. And, or, the aircraft may have been limited to not being operated in known icing conditions. It could be that known icing conditions existed, causing the delay, which after conditions changed the aircraft was able to depart, un repaired (discrepant system Deferred).

                                        Although if it is responsible for supplying the A/C why could it not affect the operation of it?

                                        Comment

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